Characteristic notes of Ionian?

[princeplanet]

C G D A E B F# c# Ab Eb Bb F

Does this mean that lydian is the most natural of all scales?

Well if it's nature you want, then you won't mind sounding out of tune as soon as you venture outside of an octave.

Pythagorean comma - Wikipedia

[princeplanet]

To answer the OP, the non major (or minor) triad tones are what constitutes the distinctive sound of any scale or mode.

Eg - Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian all share the 1 - 3 - 5 , but its the other notes that create the distinction. Hence 2, 4, 6, and 7 create the signature Ionian sound. Raising or lowering* one or more of these notes will create a unique sounding mode (*obviously lowering 4 or raising 7 by a semitone just duplicates a triad tone...)

You could of course make a case that the 2 and 6 are common to Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian, so that the nat4 and nat7 might be the important notes that differentiate between those 3 modes, but you have to realise there are hundreds of possible scales/modes you can construct, several of which can still contain 1 - 3 - 5. So I'd say the 2 and 6 are still important notes to the sound of the Ionian, which will sound quite different to, say : 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, #6, 7 !!

[docbop]

What's the thing that keeps moving between different scales and modes, where the half-steps are and where in relation to the root and fifth. The main scales/modes all have two sets of half-steps except one and it has three.

[christianm77]

C G D A E B F# c# Ab Eb Bb F

Does this mean that lydian is the most natural of all scales?

Yeah, well maybe if you like fifths. Equal temperament favours the 5th as a harmonic interval because it is reasonably in tune, so stacks of fifths are actually more in tune than an major triad, say:

Perfect Fifth
Just intonated: 1.5
Equal temperament: ~1.498
Difference ~1.002

Major Third
Just intonated: 1.25
Equal temperament: ~1.259
Difference ~1.009

No scale is 'natural' per se. There's always an arbitrary cut off... But you can go further up the chain.

Warne Marsh says check out my stack of thirds:

C E G B D F# A C#

(Two octave major)

I see this as building two stacks of fifths on a major third
C G D A
E B F# C#

We could go further:

C E G B D F# A C# E G# B D# etc

Here's the same thing for a minor third

C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B etc

Which is Dorian for the first two octaves

I stopped reading Lydian Chromatic Concept when I realised there was something off with the logic, perhaps someone can explain why we go from F# to G# in his ordering of the 12 notes when all the other notes are in 5ths.

People get hot and bothered about the overtone sequence, but chords are composite sounds. The cycle of fourths can be equally harmonious as we know from quartal voicings. The reason for this is based on fairly straightforward maths. In any case, the ET fourth (~1.3348) is pretty close to the Just fourth (1.3333etc)

C F Bb G Eb etc

So the fourth scale, which is also the 'darkest', C Locrian, is just as natural as Lydian

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb etc (as Jacob Collier points out)

Or a quartal voicing built on the third of the scale

C + E A D G C (F! Bb Eb Ab Db hmm interesting...)
Which gives the
C6
C6/9
chords which you don't get so quickly from the 5th stack or the Warne Marsh thirds ladder

And so on, lots of potential directions.

[christianm77]

Btw in response to the OP get the chord scale theory book by Bazza Nettles and the other one

[pinbridge]

Btw in response to the OP get the chord scale theory book by Bazza Nettles and the other one

The "other one"? What's the other one? I'm still looking for the reference of the book the OP mentions!

[christianm77]

The "other one"? What's the other one? I'm still looking for the reference of the book the OP mentions!

chord scale theory - Google Search

Nettles and fish face. You know the other one. Thingummy.

[joe ellipse]

Ionian is the reference for major scale so there is no characteristic note. For an improvisator, it is better use the lydian scale over a major chord.

[pinbridge]

Hi Joe,

I was looking for an answer to support the OP's statement and to explain why the 4th is the characteristic note of Major, according to the book he mentions (which I still can't find the reference for).

Now looking at it from the perspective you mention, let's assume for a minute that instead of Major, we make Dorian the "reference" scale. What would be the characteristic note of Ionian and of other modes of this new reference scale?

[joe ellipse]

hi from a new galaxy where dorian is the reference ? for ionan the major 3 and the major 7 , it is as simple as that ! more seriously you re gonna find out that the 2 added notes of a major pentatonic scale are ' most of the times ) the caracteristic notes of the modes ( IN C , the F and B are very important ).

[matt.guitarteacher]

Searches on Google and this forum for "characteristic pitch" and "modes", including quotes on the first one, will yield results. It's a standard term, not a debate really. Nat 4 For Ionian?

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[matt.guitarteacher]

Incidentally, Bert Ligon has a different approach on this. He talks about "characteristic pitches", as in plural. If I remember correctly, it's basically the two pitches which distinguish one mode from the next as they cycle , in either direction.

So he would say the "characteristic pitches" of Ionian are the 4 and 7. One distinguishes it from mixolydian, the other from lydian; opposite directions cycling.

Be sure to do a forum search on the following: "characteristic pitch", "modal", and filter for username: Reg.

Good old discussions if you're interested in use of characteristic pitch in playing actual modal tunes or in modal jazz style generally.

[ragman1]

Hi,
I'm new enough to jazz and still getting to grips with some of the harmony involved. The book which I have for college lists out all of the characteristic notes of each mode of the major scale, such as the flat 7 in mixolyidian and the the sharp 4 in lydian etc. The only characteristic is list of Ionian is the 4th. I don't understand why, I thought that it may have something to do with the fact that it's an avoid note but my lecturer told me that's not the case. He wants us to try figure it out but I'm at a loss. The book is one the Harmony 1 Berklee workbook. Any help would be great.
Thanks.

Each mode which has a note that characterises it in relation to the others. Not by itself, but in relation to, and in a major scale context.

If you play C ionian then play C mixolydian the b7 sound is obvious right away, the Bb stands out. If you play C lydian then it's the #4 - the F# - that is obvious.

Modally speaking, therefore, the note that distinguishes the ionian from mixo and lydian is the natural 4.

You've kind of got to work backwards. It's all in the listening rather than on paper.

[Jonah]

I'd stick to pretty basic hearing experience in context of modal jazz... the theory of it is still not so stable to me to refer to (in comparison say - to early music modality)



major3rd (because it's the mode of 'major inclination/ (major here is not the besy term but still I use it just to identify major 3rd in common) - in diatons there are three of them)

major7 (as different from the other major mode Myxolidian)

natural4 (as different from Lydian)

I would just put it that simple.

And it describes 1/2 tone, 1 tone construction of the scale too. Whic in my opinion is very important for modality too.

[christianm77]

Yeah the 4-3 7-1 resolution on its own kind of defines the Ionian tonality. Or the major scale as I like to call it.

In natural minor I would use the relative- so 2-b3 b6-5. Harmonic minor intensifies this with 7-1.

But other modes? Some major modes seem kind of static and non resolving to me. Lydian for example.

And what if the MM modes? They aren't generally used in that way - in general they get plonked onto chords in isolation in the sense that they have no 'bad notes'. The altered scale OTOH can be seen as a way of (almost) maximising semitones resolutions into a tonic major triad.

I don't really buy a lot of the characteristic pitch/avoid note stuff in cst. For some things it works but it's a bit simplistic.

[Jonah]

Yeah the 4-3 7-1 resolution on its own kind of defines the Ionian tonality. Or the major scale as I like to call it.

In natural minor I would use the relative- so 2-b3 b6-5. Harmonic minor intensifies this with 7-1.

But other modes? Some major modes seem kind of static and non resolving to me. Lydian for example.

And what if the MM modes? They aren't generally used in that way - in general they get plonked onto chords in isolation in the sense that they have no 'bad notes'. The altered scale OTOH can be seen as a way of (almost) maximising semitones resolutions into a tonic major triad.

I don't really buy a lot of the characteristic pitch/avoid note stuff in cst. For some things it works but it's a bit simplistic.

You see.. in modality I hear it is not always 1/2 that deternines tension-resolution. For example in Dorian I can rather hear resolution VII to I and VI to V

Stability or instability of pitches can be established by different methods... fro example repetition, rythmic accent, some common for mode motivic structures...

After all... when we say that in Ionian VII resolves to I and IV to III, are not we unconciously by inner hearing presume functional relations that are so common for us now? At least can we say it for sure?


Equal temperance (with its development to 20th century) definitely killed one thing - the characteristic sound of keys that was derived from characterestic sound of modes in early modality...
Today transposition is more or less formal technical thing... in a sense 'all the keys became equal'

And in jazz we have - let me call it - post-tonal modality in equal temperance. What kind of world is it? Really hard to say...
To me it's more or less about two things
1) decrease of role of tonal modulation and consequently realtions between keys as meaningful element of language (modulation became more like a 'shift' than a 'transition')
2) formal equality of tonalities - they differ only by root pitch reference

As a result the role of chromatism became very obscure... is it a chromaticism or another scale? Is it sill a diatonic mode or reduced chromatic mode? or a major?

it's something like an attempt on 12-tone organization system. Even speaking of diatonic modes... it is presumed that they are to be treated in all 12 keys so in a way it's all covering system...

Speaking in old trad tonal language - it's teh method how to change tonic coherently all the time non-stop...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Dorian mode question

[matt.guitarteacher]

Dorian mode question

Post 51 gets specifically into characteristic pitch more, but the whole thing is worth looking at is your into this topic.

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[acidskiffle]

This is a blast from the past.

The book was Harmony 1 by Barry Nettles I believe. We got it in the first semester at Berklee.

[docbop]

This is a blast from the past.

The book was Harmony 1 by Barry Nettles I believe. We got it in the first semester at Berklee.

with a little Google'ing it can be found on the internet and the other three volumes of it.

[pinbridge]

This is a blast from the past.

The book was Harmony 1 by Barry Nettles I believe. We got it in the first semester at Berklee.

Thanks acidskiffle. Well, I ordered the wrong book then!
So, five years on, do you have any more insight into this?

[acidskiffle]

Thanks acidskiffle. Well, I ordered the wrong book then!
So, five years on, do you have any more insight into this?

Like others posted, you can find them quite easily online.

5 years on I'm a lot less insightful about a lot of things unfortunately!
A lot of posters summed it up quite well already I think. I just sort of accepted that it's the one note that really sets ionian apart from lydian and mixolydian.

[pinbridge]

Like others posted, you can find them quite easily online.

5 years on I'm a lot less insightful about a lot of things unfortunately!
A lot of posters summed it up quite well already I think. I just sort of accepted that it's the one note that really sets ionian apart from lydian and mixolydian.

I hear you. The wiser none the wiser!

I released a title recently, The Little Big Guitar Scale Handbook, where there is a discussion on characteristic notes. The modes of Major can be ordered in such a fashion that one note only is changed from one mode to the next. In doing so, a pattern of these "change notes" forms. For Ionian, they are the 4th and the 7th. Unfortunately, I cannot explain why the characteristic note is the 4th rather than the 7th. That may be due to the fact that I have not found a "textbook" definition or unified definition of the "characteristic note" (or notes for some). In fact, some people don't identify a characteristic note for Ionian, while others may qualify both the 4th and the 7th. Presumably, a definition of the characteristic note would then also apply to other scales and their modes like Harmonic Minor.

The search is on (at least for me).