Autumn Leaves - modal analysis please

[jster]

Sure, so basically the "parent scale" for a chord is the major scale that the chord's mode originates from (George Russell used lydian scales as parent scales, not sure why). examples...

Dm7 (if dorian) has a C parent scale
Dm7 (if aeolean) has an F parent scale

the parent scale is equivalent to the location on the circle of 5ths.

Here's where it gets a little different, although i think it makes total sense.

There are two ways to convert a Major parent scale into a MM scale.

#1 raise the root (primary)
#2 lower the third

number one tends to bother people but check it out...

Cmaj becomes Dmm if you raise the root, if you compare the chords from each scale you will find that the chord types remain the same with the exceptions of the "tonic chords" or "keynote" chords..

CMa7---- Dm7----Em7----FMa7----G7----Am7----Bm7(b5)
C#alt----Dm6----Em7----FMaj7(-5)-G7---A7------Bm7(b5)

It makes sense to me, as Melodic Minor really has no "tonic" chords, it's all a bit unsettled.

From this we can make a determination that a chord with a MM inside choice with a raised variable tone (higher than the diatonic alternative) will be originated from the parent scale that the MM comes from... for example

Dmin7(-5) Locrian +2 = Fmm.... the parent scale for Fmm is Eb major. So, A D locrian +2 chord has a parent scale of Eb major.




When you lower the 3rd of a major scale you get fewer options.

CMa7---- Dm7----Em7----FMa7----G7----Am7----Bm7(b5)
Cmin6----Dm7----EbMaj7--F7------G7---Am7(b5)--Bm7(b5)

The lowered tone yields only 3 useable alterations from the diatonic model... Dorian -2, mixo b6, and altered scale on a half-dim. in all cases the variable tone is lowered from the diatonic model, the cool thing is that the parent scale is that same as the above model, meaning....

Bm7(-5) altered scale comes from C parent
Bm7(-5) Locrian +2 also comes from C parent
Bm7(-5) Locrian you guessed it... C parent


Dominant chords are always 5 chords in their parent scale.

One of the final steps in this theory (for now) is to use the root movement of the parent scales from one chord to another to determine if the movement will be a resolution or non-resolution.

Sorry if this is overly wordy or seems completely irrelevant.

Not sure where to begin here.

When you talk about the virtues of raising the root rather than lowering the third, what are you doing? I take it you aren't saying how to apply the analysis, but rather are explaining (partially) why it works. Am I correct?

And we just applied it to the Herbie tune without talking about root motion at all. Why didn't we talk about root motion? Was it somehow built into the application?

(I have a bunch of more specific questions, but I thought I would start with my most general concerns.)

[JonR]

I've had "Autumn Leaves" stuck in my thread since Jon started this thread.

Er, you mean stuck in your head...?

My heartfelt apologies...

I'm afraid I'm now tiptoeing carefully away, abandoning all responsibility...


I mean, the debate is now in better hands than mine .

[Bryan T]

Er, you mean stuck in your head...?

D'oh!

My heartfelt apologies...

No worries. We don't get a lot of fall colors where I live, so I'll take what I can get.

[timscarey]

I worked through the fifth chord and saw that it works. Nice. Do you have a chart for the tune? I couldn't pull one up. Or can you jot down the chords?

I understand why the MM is at a tense level. But why are Dorian and especially Lydian at a tense level? I thought Lydian was supposed to be superior to Ionian because no avoid note. Without dominant chords around, isn't Lydian better?

(OK, I still have to work through your raising the root rather than lowering the third stuff.)

Thanks!

Lydian might be a better sounding choice (the #4 sounds more stable than the P4), But this is about chord function, not what to play over the chord.

It's not that Lydian, Dorian, and Locrian (chords) are particularly "tense". It's that they are not "I" or "i" so are not heard as being "final" or completely resolved in the context of a modal progression.

They are heard as a IV, or ii chord might be heard, as leading to something or suggesting a continuation of the harmony. Chords which have an Ionian, Aeolean, or Phrygian inside choice will be heard as I or i chords and would end a progression quite well. That doesn't mean you have to play those notes, it describes the nature of the chords themselves.

[JonR]

D'oh!



No worries. We don't get a lot of fall colors where I live, so I'll take what I can get.

How about this then:

It ain't jazz (phew!), but it is the original lyrics - complete with the long preliminary verse; and she did date Miles Davis in Paris (and took him to the African ballet which partly inspired All Blues...)
Chicks don't come much cooler (or much Frencher) than that...

[timscarey]

When you talk about the virtues of raising the root rather than lowering the third, what are you doing? I take it you aren't saying how to apply the analysis, but rather are explaining (partially) why it works. Am I correct?

I'm describing how to find the parent scales for the various melodic minor modes.

And we just applied it to the Herbie tune without talking about root motion at all. Why didn't we talk about root motion? Was it somehow built into the application?

The root motion thing is about the root motion of the parent scales, not the chords themselves. This is getting back to the circle of 5ths.

As any chord type can move to any other chord type, using root movement from chord to chord would leave us with thousands of possibilities. Using the root movement of the parent scales as the measure gives us a smaller set of options, and is a reliable method.

Also, this stuff is pretty dense, I really dig all of the questions, it can just be hard to explain on a message board. If you would like me to explain how I think of parent scale resolution I totally will, but I'm wondering if this thread has turned into a two person conversation.

(I have a bunch of more specific questions, but I thought I would start with my most general concerns.)

keep them coming, I'm digging this conversation.

[jster]

If you would like me to explain how I think of parent scale resolution I totally will...keep them coming, I'm digging this conversation.

So in Prince of Darkness, you have chord resolution to Gm7. Taking the Gm7 as Aeolian, the parent scales for those four bars are Bb major scale, Bb major scale, Ab major scale, Bb major scale. Is that right?

So we have chords at tense levels 2 and 3 resolving down to level 1. And we have parent scales resolving also? Two different kinds of resolutions at the same time? Am I understanding this? Or am I totally lost?

[timscarey]

So in Prince of Darkness, you have chord resolution to Gm7. Taking the Gm7 as Aeolian, the parent scales for those four bars are Bb major scale, Bb major scale, Ab major scale, Bb major scale. Is that right?

So we have chords at tense levels 2 and 3 resolving down to level 1. And we have parent scales resolving also? Two different kinds of resolutions at the same time? Am I understanding this? Or am I totally lost?

You are not lost at all. The resolutions from one chord to another and the resolutions of parent scale are one and the same. Ab parent scale resolves to Bb parent scale. The Bbm7 resolving to Gm7 is just one possible way of making it happen.

For example....

(Ab parent to Bb parent)

DbMaj7(-5) would resolve to Cm6 (#3--#2)

AbMaj7 resolves to BbMaj7 (#2-#1)

Gmin7(b5) resolves to Ebmaj7(-5) (#3-#2)

Bbmin6 resolves to BbMaj7 (#3-#1)

in all cases the parent scales are Ab - Bb... any movement from Ab parent to Bb parent will be a resolution.

Sorry, I have to go to a rehearsal, but I have a lot of time today so I'll try to get more into parent scale resolution later today.

[jster]

... any movement from Ab parent to Bb parent will be a resolution...

So I suppose you have a list of which parent scales resolve to which parent scales? Any step up is a resolution?

[timscarey]

So I suppose you have a list of which parent scales resolve to which parent scales?

Indeed, that would be the next chapter.

It's about resolving intervals of root motion from parent scale to parent scale.

Resolving intervals
up a major 2nd
up a major 3rd
up an aug 4th
down a minor 2nd
down a minor 3rd
down a P4th

non-resolving intervals
up and minor 2nd
up a minor 3rd
up a P4
down a major 2nd
down a major 3rd
down a dim 5th

They are opposites (lydian and locrian), covering all possible root movements, half are resolutions, half are non-resolutions. It is clear though that certain resolving intervals will create a stronger resolution than others.

A quick and easy way to hear this is to move parallel major 7th chords by the different intervals and listen to which one sounds "tonic" looping them in groups of 2 helps as well, as does improvising over them. For example

Up a Major 3rd (resolution) Cps to Eps

CMaj7----EMaj7---- (try ending an 8 bar vamp on each chord and see which one sounds final, and try each inside choice note for each chord)

CMaj7-----C#m7----

Bm7(-5)----Emaj7----


Resolutions can also occur in the same parent scale by moving from non-tonic or melodic minor to tonic.

and of course, dominant chords still exist

When a chord resolves to another chord, the first chord will have the raised variable tone and the second chord will have the lowered variable tone when compared to each other, the parent scale movement will also match the above chart. Both methods are valid for predicting a resolution.

This is about where I am with this stuff, I have ideas beyond this regarding the strength of different resolutions etc, but am still working on it. The movement of a tritone seems to be a tricky one as well, and, depending on context, can be very hard to gauge.

These are the very last chapters of the jazz theory book we used at Cornish College in Seattle. I currently teach this course and we end up getting here near the end of the year. Most of the class is about big band arranging, voice leading, CST, etc. This is the stuff that always leads to really good in class discussions and composing by the students.

It has also been very helpful for me over the years in working with modal harmony. And, the book is still being written as we all know, these are just ideas, although of all of the theory I've read concerning modern modal music, this and modal interchange really do have a lot to offer. IMO.

[Bryan T]

A quick and easy way to hear this is to move parallel major 7th chords by the different intervals and listen to which one sounds "tonic" looping them in groups of 2 helps as well, as does improvising over them.

I'm intrigued by the ideas you presented. However, I'm skeptical since I've seen cases where harmonic rhythm or melodic form can change individuals' perception of tonic. Cases where reasonable people agree to disagree.

[timscarey]

I'm intrigued by the ideas you presented. However, I'm skeptical since I've seen cases where harmonic rhythm or melodic form can change individuals' perception of tonic. Cases where reasonable people agree to disagree.

I agree with you completely. This way of thinking, like all methods will lead to a perspective, or a method of approaching harmony. I find it valuable for certain things, mostly composing in a modal style.

Its funny you mention those 2 things, harmonic rhythm and melody, those happen to be the next 2 chapters in the book. We usually cover them earlier in the class, but they are the next 2. Here is the table of contents from Jim's website. Jim Knapp Music :: Books & Scores

Jim Knapp is the author of this book and has been my theory teacher for many years.

01. Three Harmonic Languages
02. Four Note Chords
03. Voicing Down
04. Replacement Tones
05. Name That Chord
06. Voice Leading
07. Scales 1 - Diatonic Modes
08. Scales 2 - Melodic Minor Modes
09. Four Note Chords, Seven Note Scales and Variable Tones
10. "Inside Choice" Macrodiatonicism
11. Diminished Scales
12. Pentatonic Scales
13. Blues Scales
14. Diatonic and Chromatic Relationships in Modal and Blues Harmony
15. Triadic Harmony
16. Slash Chords and Inversions
17. Harmonic Resolution 1 - Macrodiatonicism
18. Harmonic Resolution 2 – Parent Scales
19. Parent Scales Worksheets
20. The Phrase
21. Melody
22. Practice – Diatonic Modes
23. Practice – Melodic Minor Modes
24. Practice – Dimished Scales
25. Practice – Arpeggios and Scales


I highly recommend this book. It's pretty dense and assumes a strong grasp on tonal theory going in, but it's always been one of my favorite theory book. Definitely when it comes to modal harmony in jazz music.

[Reg]

Hey Tim... the system seems straight ahead. The one point that somewhat stands out to me... all the relationships... the resolutions are all based on standard maj/min modality. Ignoring dom. relationships. But designed on the results from those relationships. The same set of notes design the organization of relationships...

I can see and hear the move from using.... melodic relationships becoming guidelines for harmonic movement, as compared to interval resolutions. But the guideline of those melodic movement are based on functional harmony... My point, this seems more like a Modal Application of functional harmony. A method of having functional relationships based on Major/minor harmony... tonality based on Ionian (aeolian) Mode(s). I don't really see why dom chords won't function in this system. They are for the most part used in most modal tunes etc...they can be camouflaged.

I would think the modal aspect would reflect a different choice of notes to determine the relationships... which would become different organization of ...Tonic Diatonic, N-T D and MM. Which would reflect the modal aspect of modal composition.

Is this method taught as organizational use of modal concepts with functional harmony. Much like modal interchange, a method to organize expanding maj/min harmony...
Granted all these organizational guidelines are simply method to becoming aware and understanding relationships...
I'll order his book... always good to support the clan...

Reg

[timscarey]

Hey Tim... the system seems straight ahead. The one point that somewhat stands out to me... all the relationships... the resolutions are all based on standard maj/min modality. Ignoring dom. relationships. But designed on the results from those relationships. The same set of notes design the organization of relationships...

Totally, you are right. It's based on tonal harmony and the relationships that exist in the tonal realm. It's not that the system, or even the book/method ignores dominant chords, it doesn't. I was just presenting this portion of the material without dominant chords to highlight the "inside choice" stuff.

The book does make a big distinction between the three harmonic languages though... Tonal, Blues, and Modal.

Tonal being the music of major and minor keys
Blues being the music of dominant chords only
Modal being the music of major and minor chords only

Most "modal" tunes use more than just modal harmony, Fee-fi-fo-fum for example clearly uses all 3 languages: Tonal and Modal on the A sections and Blues on the B section.

I can see and hear the move from using.... melodic relationships becoming guidelines for harmonic movement, as compared to interval resolutions. But the guideline of those melodic movement are based on functional harmony... My point, this seems more like a Modal Application of functional harmony. A method of having functional relationships based on Major/minor harmony... tonality based on Ionian (aeolian) Mode(s). I don't really see why dom chords won't function in this system. They are for the most part used in most modal tunes etc...they can be camouflaged.

Again, you hit it right on the nose, No disagreements here. Dominant chords will function in this system, and are included in the chapters on inside choice and parent scales, I just left them out of this thread.

I would think the modal aspect would reflect a different choice of notes to determine the relationships... which would become different organization of ...Tonic Diatonic, N-T D and MM. Which would reflect the modal aspect of modal composition.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.

Is this method taught as organizational use of modal concepts with functional harmony. Much like modal interchange, a method to organize expanding maj/min harmony...
Granted all these organizational guidelines are simply method to becoming aware and understanding relationships...
I'll order his book... always good to support the clan...

Yes, it is. It is taught as a way to asses different "non-tonal" chord movements, pretty much exactly like modal interchange. I prefer to use tunes when I teach this stuff so the students get the info right along side the more advanced tonal progressions. It's hard to find tunes that are 100% modal, not impossible, but tough. You know, we look at tunes like "tell me a bedtime story" or selected Wayne Shorter/Chick Corea stuff. Dave Leibman, Micheal Brecker, Robert Glasper, Mulgrew Miller, etc...

[Reg]

Hey Tim... As always thinks for responses.
Sorry for verbal confusion, what I was trying to say... I generally think of modal music as music which uses different notes to define organizational relationships.
We basically use as reference, Major/minor, Ionian and aeolian as our basic reference... We generally impose ionian dominant tritone function on aeolian which is basically why we call traditional theory and harmony functional harmony.

So modal music would have different notes define basis for functional movement for each mode. The parent reference would be Dorian in a Dorian modal system of organization. The root motion representive of the mode would define the tonic or non tonic motion.
I'm not trying to knock or by any means imply any negative to the system . I totally dig the organization and guidelines developed from. And it's very cool to get your explanations... Thanks again, looking forward to getting Jim's book.

But getting back to the question of modal analysis... There might be room for more discussion as to what that actually is. If that really even matters... Who cares. Reg

[sutra1]

Hi Reg,
Reading through all discussions I notice you had sent someone a sheet with chord functions of some sort, I believe related to modal interchange. When and if you get some time could you or anyone else send a copy to [email protected] Thank you so much. All this stuff makes sense just looking for some specifics to expand on.

Robert Lee

[Reg]

Hey sutra1... where was the post?... this thread...Reg

[javierfiji]

It should t be analyzed as a modal tune, or use a modal analysis. -the tunes is tonal, has functional harmony. not modal