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Of comparable importance is playing with other people. Unfortunately, just working on stuff in the bedroom isn't enough.
Originally Posted by ECHOPLEX
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07-31-2012 03:19 PM
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I could not agree more with you Jake,interacting with musicians is a crucial part of someones musical development. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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For those who aren't aware of it, Reg has also a youtube channel:
Reg523's channel - YouTube
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I find these videos very inspiring. They really have a positive impact on my own appoach. I find myself trying to emulate the clarity of the articulation and the fantastic, snappy rhythmic flow.
If you are still taking suggestions Reg, I would be fascinated to hear your take on the kind of older standard that has a lot of changes, something like "All the things you are" or "The Song is you".
Cheers,
Fred.
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Hey all... sorry for not checking in, this time of year is incredibly busy.
I have a list of vids to make,
1) Thought I would use last months practical group's tune... Summer Time to show some different ways to play harmonically, the tunes very vanilla, but that gives lots of space to develop harmonic grooves, room to easily show how single chords can represent chord patterns. Those chord patterns can develop from harmonic concepts, a mechanical way to organize which chords you use and how you use them. yada yada...
2) make vids of some of the 1st steps I use personally for both comping as well as soloing... example could be... when you use a D-7 arpeggio... D, F, A, C.... keep going but use the functional extension of F maj7, F, A, C, E..... complete arpeggio of D,F,A,C,F,A,C,E. I know very simple... but that's just opening the door to the concept.... there are many applications...
3) I'll gladly play through any tunes... If I don't know the tune, I'll just read through... I basically really only have time to record single takes etc... they'll be rough. But that's how it is at gigs, You fake it as well as you can...
Anyway again sorry for not posting more...
Reg
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Looking forward to seeing them . Thanks Originally Posted by Reg
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I wish I could take part in this conversation. I'm catching fragments, but it's 90% over my head (teaching myself jazz, starting at age 38).
Reg, you are easily the most exciting guitar player I have seen/heard. Somewhow, it's not discouraging though.
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Reg: Looking forward to seeing you back on here. I miss your posts. When you get back, please talk bebop and give some examples of how you organize and apply language to create some interesting lines in a solo--also how to comp behind soloist at fast bop tempos. Best wishes, WW Originally Posted by Reg
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Long Time... there is simply not enough time... weak but that's all I got.
Anyway... I'll try and start posting....
Here's something to start with, I played two trio gigs with same guys a week ago. Long story short, was fun and we were in the pocket from the start. So the following Monday we recorded four sample tunes... all one takes, (none of us have any extra time, but we all like what we played at gigs...) and all quick head arrangements. Head arrangements are verbal arrangements you make right before you play the tune. There a little loose, I didn't know the jobin tune... but we just wanted a demo for booking etc... doesn't need to be perfect.
The tunes were picked by the keyboard player... he worries about his playing. He has funk history, the jazz thing is still new to him... he can cover... and he recorded. Anyway the tunes are;
Mellow Mood
Cold Duck Time
Girl Talk
If you ever come to me
02 Track 2 by Reg523 on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
03 Track 3 by Reg523 on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
01 Track 1 by Reg523 on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
Check the tunes out... be easy, they're rough, But I'll go through any of them and breakdown, comping, soloing... how I fake it through etc...
Reg
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Killin' it as usual Reg! Great playing from all!
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Thanks Spirit59'''
I always talk about Form as being one of the most important aspects of my playing, composing etc... I guess I'll get a little into Form.
Traditionally... Form is thought of as somewhat general principles and schemes that govern the over-all structure of music... through practice becoming traditionally established.
So from a jazz perspective... the constructive organizing elements in music, governing the presentation, development and the interrelationships of ideas.
So not only the structure of a tune... but also the techniques and concepts used to develop ideas within that structure...
Form also controls how and where we pull from when we solo... can be as simple as just the starting point for relationships or have a multilayer, multi concept harmonic system.
So when I talk about Form... I'm not just implying,
A,A',A''
A,B
A,B,A
A,A,B,A
A,B,A,C,etc
Blues Forms... I'm also talking about harmonic concepts, improve concepts all the concepts used to play jazz...
This should open some doors... the good part is how using form will simplify using and understanding melodic, harmonic and rhythmic concepts performing.
Reg
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I get that by form you don't just mean the form of the song itself, but the form of the "genre" as it were. The jazz background, yeah?, that the beginner struggles with as they start training their ears to hear it, their brains to grasp the "jazz sound," their fingers to play it by learning the standards. Is that about right?
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Hey fish... ya gotta love that, Originally Posted by "Umm, fish?"
Sounds good enough, that word genre needs to have lots of very physical implications.
Just as CCP or european classical tradition has implications and understandings of what musical terms mean and what music actually is... and that's just the tip of the iceberg, Jazz has a few more layer of understandings which are Jazz Common practice.
One of those is implications of and from Form. That Jazz Sound can very easily be broken down into very physical harmonic, melodic etc...concepts. Form can be used to structurally control harmonic usage.
And with jazz harmony's usage of Modal Interchange, modal use of controlling function... not Major/Minor tonal general tendencies. Which leads to harmonic concepts or systems other than traditional Maj./Min. basic functional harmony.... Blue notes, Jazz use of MM and MM harmonic practice.
It may sound simple... usually that's from not really understanding jazz practice. Most try and fit and understand Jazz from a traditional perspective... somewhat like just using the white notes on a piano.
Anyway... training your ears to hear and understand by trial and error...is very slow and doesn't always work. We don't all have perfect pitch or photographic memory, (like Wes had, at least that one of the stories).
Long story short... yes the form in music ... Form means more than just structural design of space.
Different periods of music use Form to imply existence of harmonic, melodic and rhythmic schemes and concepts... Rondo Form, Sonata Form etc... Jazz has simply different Forms in music...
Sorry to BS so much... but there are very real problems with Jazz education... and the understanding of what Jazz is. In the end who cares... it's just music.
Reg
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Come on Reg, I see no BS at all in what you're saying, quite the contrary, this is the real stuff. Keep it coming.
(Incidentally, that "who cares, it's just music," reminds me antithetically (I just invented that word) of Alf Ramsey or whichever football coach saying (approximately), "Some people think football is a matter of life or death, but it's much more important than that.")
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Ahhh it's good to hear... read JohnRoss again. thanks
Ok moving on... here's a example of using a concept to control how I might approach playing a tune.
I'm using MM somewhat like a blanket or template over the tune, "Alone Together".
I modal interchange all the minor chords to MM... at least as starting point, my reference. Now I add all the related V7#11 chords to those Min chords. I really want to actually change my tonal reference to those related V7 chords.
If I have a V7 chord, I add related II- with again MM Modal interchange which could change the source of original V7 chord . I always have access to all subs.
I now have source for Blue Notes and I'm changing the original tonal concept... creating different relationships and what actual note create those relationships.
I'm doing this on the spot... like a head arrangement at most gigs...
I'll write out the arrangement of the tune which will show a set of results... that's part of playing Jazz... every time I play the tune it can change
There is always a balance to use of any concept or technique...
So here is a vid of result... rough, but I dig the resulting changes and influence on the tune.... I'll make lead sheet and post later.
I'm fairly sure I'm not very clear, verbally or musically but will help start a dialogue about this process.. which is very cool.
This is just one example of using jazz concepts to play through tunes.
Anyway check it out
Reg
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Hey Reg,
In another thread today you wrote,
Can you give us a little history of jazz/jazzguitar as you see it? In your most outspoken moments, you say that straight functional jazz is boring and that jazz at its best has your four ingredients "all going on simultaneously". So when does jazz really take off in terms of being interesting? Sometime in the 70's? And can you give us some names of players (don't have to be guitarists) who were seminal in putting the four ingredients together? Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks as always.
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Hey Jster... I can try... Outspoken... I like that.
When I say boring... that is to me personally, and the reason is fairly simple, least amount of physical choices... you already know what and where the soloist is going to pull from. Granted great players can make anything sound great. But most of us mortals are not in that group.
If you watch the compositions of Horace Silver and Art Blakey's bands compositions. you can watch and see/hear the changes. Then check out Joe Henderson and Wayne Shorter for developments in those concepts.
Let me put together a list of set of examples to back up what I preach. In the mean time here's a video of Wes's West Coast Blues.
Very straight... chord tones and blue notes. I play all octaves... slows me down... hopefully easier to hear. As always... loose...
Reg
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I posted this in the comping section... nothing special or detailed but might be useful.
Here's a quick Video of one of many applications of approaching comping... in a jazz style. The concept would include use of,
1) organized use of "Form of", the actual space. call answer or strong weak pattern for reference. Organize how you use subs or any other source of adding or changing chords.
2) organized use of Subs.
3) use of typical jazz "Chord Patterns", changes from typical jazz tunes. I VI II V, I bIII II bII, II V's ...basically any chord progression from any tune and can be used as...one chord. Don't get hung up on making sure all the notes plug and play according to basic theory... most Chord patterns are used and heard somewhat like Pedals... their a constant with something over the top... the melody or improve. And you can generally alter the progression to fit situation through any number of harmonic jazz practices.
Anyway check it out... and try coming up with your own use of the concept and applications of.... that's somewhat the point... being able to play in a jazz style with out memorizing, for example what ever I post as possibilities.
RegLast edited by Reg; 10-18-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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I was posting some comments in the improve section... And I though my advice might help some to think about how they approach playing Jazz... The post was second in response to guitarist having difficulty playing through faster II V's...
Hey euterpe... do you understand what I'm trying to explain.
When you comp or solo... anyway you fill the physical space. Unless your spontaneously creating... with no reference or RELATIONSHIPS.
What your hearing or playing does have relationships. In your example of difficulty playing over contiguous or sequenced II V's... what your trying to hear or play only works... if there is some type of relationship between the changes and what your playing.
When you memorize mechanical methods of playing through changes... whether it's chord scales, chord tones or arpeggios... the relationships are simply momentary... the set of pitches are in relationship to the chord or short chord pattern. That's the concept or system of organization... you can hear or see as melodic or harmonic... it's a one dimensional mechanical relationship.
When you play jazz... very rarely do the changes stay the same. And there are generally melodic or harmonic concepts... jazz concepts being implied by both the soloist and players comping. Mechanical skills cover very few of them.
I know most teach and say... hear what your playing, keep practicing the technical skills... and it will come... But if you don't hear what your playing over, and that usually means... some type of harmonic understanding... it won't ever happen.
You can get to the point where you have enough memorized mechanical skills to cover some situations... as long as they're simple and not too fast... but that's usually it. I'm taking for granted your not a prodigy.
Sorry to somewhat single you out... My comments are directed to most on this forum. Your example was just one of the classic examples...
If you want more advice from this direction or school of playing jazz. I'll gladly help... or if doesn't sound right for you, no problems... I can also help with the method your using now...
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Thanks Reg. So I was listening to this Martino tune and I was wondering about what you hear when you listen to a tune by somebody else.
1) Can you hear the whole chord progression? Do you have to use your guitar to do that?
2) Do you just hear all the "implications"? How many "implications" are we talking about? A handful? A dozen? In this one piece. And can you give us a couple of examples? I'd pay big money to get a list of all the possible implications you work with. Hehe.
3) Can you hear your four pillars: functional, MM, blue notes, and modal interchange whenever they occur? Can you hear them in this Marino Tune? Can you give us some points in the video where you hear things?
Yeah, so I guess what I am asking is for you to download your brain so to speak and tell us everything you hear when you listen to a video like this.
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Not to answer for Reg, and I in no way compare myself with him...but this progression is pretty standard. Static vamp in a minor key, followed by descending ii-Vs (starting, I think a step down from the original vamp?). The bridge is also just descending ii-V-Is (like in Tune Up). This sounds exactly like Jeannine...is that what is is?
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So jster... How much $... you seem a little full of it... Originally Posted by jster
1) yes and no
2)yes... 2, combination of functional and Modal. Martino is old school modal style of player... he uses his modal versions of playing. I'm not sure you would actual understand if I did detail.
3)pillars... that would be your BS... but he does use functional harmony structurally, he also uses modal harmony, again with functional structure. His use of MM is functional with use of modal interchange... more like modal use of MM. Except with his use of altered, which he does use in MM style. His use of blue notes are ornamental...
(A) Dmin9....C-9, F7alt, Bbma7, Eb7#11, D-
(A) repeat ?... I barely made it through 1st chorus
(B) C-9, D-9, C7alt( V of implied relative Maj)
(A) D...
I dig Martino... steady 8ths with some grooves.
But the tunes pretty simple.
Why don't you post video of you playing his groove tune... I'll write it out for you if that would help... and break down your playing... what your playing reflects. Might be helpful for you...
Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
Hey, at least I didn't ask you how many hours a day you practice. I've been busy with other things, and what I think I need to do is serious ear training; so I really want to know how you hear a tune. My playing is too vanilla right now. What I learned in the last year was how to play the changes with arpeggios. I can really outline the changes in most tunes I read. But now I need to start adding more stuff. So rather than commit myself to some particular possibly mistaken approach, I think it is better to just get some serious ear training. I'll need that anyway. It's most important. Do it first. Cause I can't just spit out the chords to tunes that I hear the way you just did. And it makes me sad.Last edited by jster; 10-25-2012 at 02:58 AM.
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Quite possibly. Originally Posted by jster
2 1/2 years of undergrad music theory with associated ear training classes will completely change the way you listen to music. :-) Least, that's what it took for me. Oh, and another couple of years of listening to and transcribing standards from records. (Not just transcribing solos; figuring out the chord progressions and melody as well).
Depending on how good your theory already is, you could look into Marc Sabatella's book on the harmonic language of jazz standards.
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I always push for playing live... better way to learn to play jazz.
Hey jster... I don't really ever get to practice... but I usually gig from three to eight hours a day. I'm a live player, I can read anything put in front of me, that's expected, and I usually can add... depending on gig.
An example could be... if I was called.. for Martino video you posted gig, I could read the head or create one on the spot in that style. I could play the gig with or with out a chart, and sound like I knew the chart...that's my ear training practice.
Most jazz players would be able to do the same...
I posted on a practice thread... there is practicing your skill, becoming aware of what those skills are. And then practicing performing, internalizing those skills, which is the somewhat the goal.
As Jeff, (how go's Jeff), the becoming aware of what it takes to become a jazz musician and then developing those skills does take some serious time and motivation. But for most that's a given and they dig all aspects of the journey.
Reg
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