Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

[Reg]

Yea thanks Matt

The whole point of my fingerings is for the fretboard to become one big fingering. So it doesn't matter where I'm at ...I always have as many harmonic or melodic references as I want... I can choose what I want to use as a reference. The organization is as logical as could come up with.... for organizing all applications. Not just an octave or two... they work all the way through... the don't really need to be memorized... the organization of the fingerings is memorized. It becomes default thinking or instinctive... depending on how one works etc...

Yea cool reading material PMB, but just some thoughts'''

So I'm from school that the material you posted... is reading material. I like to have each aspect or style of application or use whatever one is working on... tied together until it's instinctive.

Say your 1st example of Gmm, if the student or player doesn't already have all seven positions of two octaves together, I don't think is a good idea to mix other applications of MM.

Same with the 2nd example of 7th chord arpeggio. Generally I believe one needs to know and understand where the arpeggios are from etc. I'm alright with starting with 7th chords, but generally I believe one should start with...

1)Triads with reference to the two octaves, like your example, and each triad, two octaves starting on each diatonic chord or scale degree, same thing, right, just all scale degrees and positions.

The next step could be to move on to 7th chord arpeggios, then 9ths and them complete ... or

what I did many moons ago... was to play the triads starting on each degree, or inversions and from the position that the fingering that allowed two octaves.... Gmaj triad like your 2nd example... only the triad. Then move up to 3rd degree of Gmm or 2nd finger starting on the 3rd or "B", and play two octaves of Gmaj triad starting on 3rd. then on to 2nd finger on 5th or "D", or 2nd inversion.

Then on to the 7th chords etc...

Sequences and variations like the rest of your examples... would be mixed and practiced with scale applications. I don't really consider them fingerings associated with chords etc... just a personal organizational thing. But I believe the results of fretboard fingerings, understanding and function are much more effective.

Maybe after one has the fingerings and basic understands of what one is playing... the examples would be like you said, warm up drills, maybe. The point of actually going through the process of getting the guitar fretboard together is to not really need to have to warm up or somewhat remind your memory etc...

I don't use Harmon Min. that much and when I do I use same 2nd finger based fingerings with the change at 7th degree.
I have always added the #9 with V7 chord and depending on style of music also with other chords. Obviously with music that needs straight Harmonic min reference etc... that's what I would play... but those gigs are not around that much anymore.

[57classic]

Reg, somewhere you said you regard a piece of music in terms of what it can be. This really opened my thinking about jazz. And about the motivs of artists in general. Thanks for that!

- Your example in post #224 sounds great. Those C6/9 chords in there... are there any rules to try to start applying them? For example: can any space between two Cmaj7 inversions be traversed with two C6/9 forms.
Or do you have to be deeply at home in the quartal sound to apply this nicely?

- Your post #232, about the MM VI-chord pentatonics. I believe Destinytot in that you're giving out the Glengarry Leads gold here. I googled, but I'm afraid I don't understand, while I want to. I'm hoping but not asking that you find the time to put up the vid you where contemplating :-)

- Regarding pentatonics: do you find it useful to practice the major pentatonics within the 7 position fingerings in the major scale ? Or just stick with seeing the standard 5 two-note-per-string pentatonic positions?

- Would this be how you finger the 7 positions of G harmonic minor:

[Reg]

Hey Patrick...
close, on the VImaj fingering I usually play the "A" you fingered on 3rd string with 4th finger stretch on 2nd string with 1st finger. And on last one... 1st string ? should be Eb F# G right.

I use the standard 5 fingerings, unless I'm after a feel for a phrase, more of a method of creating rhythmic bounce, fingerings on guitar can create articulations, almost like preset grooves, I like them. I am a pretty heavy groove player, at least when I have the choice. Yea I'll post some vids.... I'm all over this weekin...even a recording session on sunday, way too many gigs, but I'll try and get to it asap

[57classic]

Many thanks again, Reg..
And have a great weekend!

[destinytot]

Terms like "Expanded Diatonic relationships" used to really throw me. Less so now - and the crucial
term is 'reference'.

A new thing for me: keeping not only my eyes but also my mind on the page.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Terms like "Expanded Diatonic relationships" used to really throw me. Less so now - and the crucial
term is 'reference'.

A new thing for me: keeping not only my eyes but also my mind on the page.

Yeah. It seems crazy. But to me, it also feels like I can hear progressions better and memorize them better/faster, the more I'm thinking about other relationships and their related sounds.

Reminds me a bit of those difficult math classes in school, where the instructor would be going over yesterday's homework answers....you're barely hanging on, and then, with everyone confused about the previous, it's on to the NEXT thing. For whatever reason, seems like the brain doesn't have time for worrying about two difficulties at once, and kind of "gives you the old one for free". Ha. Maybe that makes no sense.

To me it's sort of feels like the HARMONIC equivalent of the way subdividing the beat makes quarter notes so much more solid.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So the best approach... is to take the time to actually write out all the possible relationships with all the possible targets.
It's pretty simple... I did it as a kid, hasn't changes. there are some new harmonic materials that have added to...

I'll glady help... once you go through this mechanical process... it will become instinctive and you can mix with all the other BS and use you ears and become musical etc... It's not that difficult to be aware of what your playing, just as it's not that difficult to understand the physical design of the guitar for developing performance technique.

Hey, reg. Seem to be a few discussions lately, relating to this type of thing. Honestly, this has been the "Reg statement" which has kept me up nights ever since having heard it. I'm really getting into the extended diatonic relationships you've talked about, mostly their altered dominants etc. There just seems to be a ton of material there, even at basic levels .

Anyway, I don't have a clue about how to be systematic about the process, like the way it sounds like you're hinting at. Maybe an example of one iteration of a chord combination, and how you'd systematically look at all the relationships? Might be really helpful to more than just myself. It actually sounds like you're really busy, but it's my slow time, and I'm being selfish. :-)

Anyway, just scratching the surface with some of this has done more for my ears, for harmony, than just about anything else in years. Thanks, always.

[Boston Joe]

Hey, sorry if this disrupts the thread (we can split it out into its own thread if anyone thinks we should).

Reg, I've seen a lot of your posts referencing "blue notes". I'm a little curious about what exactly you mean by this.

When I came up playing rock and blues, I always thought of blue notes as being the b3 (against a major or dominant chord) and the b5 (for all chord types). When I started learning jazz, I didn't think much about blue notes, because I figured they were covered by the various scales and modes with altered notes.

Am I wrong about this, or are they basically the same thing?

[Reg]

Hey Matt... yea expanding diatonic relationships, that is great term, has many layers of application depending on reference and relationships.

The simple version is standard maj/min functional diatonic relationships right...

Tonic... I III and VI
Subdominant...II and IV
Dominant...V and VII

There are extended versions using borrowed relationships, using relative and parallel relationships...

The next level becomes less understood... bringing in different modal concept relationships. Using different or...expanded relationships. Think of a V7 chord... using the tritone sub of that V7 chord opens doors to possible expanded diatonic relationship.

The basic concept is for the expanded relationship, in the tritone sub example... letting the sub become a Tonal target. Like we use diatonic functional relationships....

One of the requirements for using expanded relationship is being able to see and hear music functionally. Which really is also one of the basic requirements for playing in a jazz style...

Anyway... expanding choices for functional relationships.... really opens doors for harmonic,(and melodic), relationships and developments. Obviously as I've posted for ever...

Modal Interchange
Modal concepts
Melodic Minor
and Blue Notes
are my basic organizational materials to work with.

Yea Joe... those are the basic notes... but the big things is the source and framing of those blue notes, the organizations of what they imply harmonically. I also use roots as blue notes and b13, really with reference and relationship, almost any note can become a Blue Note. Personally I create an implied target and then use my choice of blue notes to create that Blue Note Feel... It's not just am embellishment or melodic pattern or relationship... you want to create a harmonic FEEL,
which reflects Blue Jazz.

The standard simple example is playing over a II V and using a implied I chord for creating that Blue Note harmonic Feel.

So D-7 to G7 chord pattern... Use C7 blue note licks, maybe imply a A7altered for reference of Blue notes. The further you expand the relationship... the more organization should be used with references. The basic chord pattern II V and then the context of that II V... what Tune, what style of Music, what was the tune played before etc... pretty standard performance details.

[Boston Joe]

Thanks, Reg, that helps.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks for the reply, Reg.

There are extended versions using borrowed relationships, using relative and parallel relationships...

Just to be clear, are you talking about 3 separate things there, or are the relative and parallel relationships the "borrowed relationships" you're talking about? Just wanted to be sure I'm following.

The next level becomes less understood... bringing in different modal concept relationships. Using different or...expanded relationships. Think of a V7 chord... using the tritone sub of that V7 chord opens doors to possible expanded diatonic relationship.

The basic concept is for the expanded relationship, in the tritone sub example... letting the sub become a Tonal target. Like we use diatonic functional relationships....

One of the requirements for using expanded relationship is being able to see and hear music functionally. Which really is also one of the basic requirements for playing in a jazz style...

I'm curious about this one, and you're definitely right about it being less understood, at least with me. Speaking of the tritone, you've talked in the past about the difference in playing D7alt vs Ab7#11 etc, even though they share the same parent scale. So, are you talking about the way you accent different chord tones of each? Maybe as much to do with resolutions to the respective chords they're targeting?

Anyway, it sounds like you're also saying that there are harmonic implications for the differences as well, without respect to these melodic issues? Thanks for your feedback.

Thanks.

[Reg]

Hey Matt... in the example... I was just implying basing classical tradition of borrowing using relative and parallel applications of Borrowing. Which does have a few possibilities, right.

CMaj... borrowing relative minor or A-....

Cmaj7... extended Diatonic relationships... A-7 and E-7

Now borrowing from the relative minor ... Amin7

A-7... ext. Dia. Rel.... Cmaj7 and Fma7

Now Borrowing from Parallel minor C-7

C-7... ext. Dia. Rel. Ebma7 and Abmaj7

Can now start using modal concepts of which Modal Interchange is. (not Schoenberg classical extensions of borrowing).

More in jazz modal traditions... C-7 Aeolian modal interchanges to C-7 dorian and actually change the relationships between notes...

There are lots of possibilities.

As far as the tritone sub approach. Basically, D7alt as tonal target has basic relationships that are different than Ab7#11. It can be about the Root or can be about function. It does get a little complicated, but only because more layers of relationships begin to be going on simultaneously. So depending on which layer of function and relationship you want to use generally reflects how you use or give weight or value to the results. If you want to develop blue notes... the extended relationships results should be organized around how and where you want the blue notes to come from.

Your using the organization of harmonic references to frame and give weight to blue notes, becoming tonal targets.

It verbally sound much more complicated than it is once you have the process down. The extended diatonic relationships.
Personally the results are almost just like having plug and play chord patterns to frame melodic choices when soloing and more of framing harmony when comping... remember I generally comp using lead lines and put chord patterns below the lead lines.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks, reg. I'm going to dig into some of the videos this summer, and I think this will provide some great context. I'm kind of shocked at how much easier they are to watch, hear and follow, having gotten some basic MM together. Kind of disgusted that I didn't do it a few years earlier than I did. Anyway, I appreciate your persistent "encouragement" to do so.

Personally the results are almost just like having plug and play chord patterns to frame melodic choices when soloing and more of framing harmony when comping... remember I generally comp using lead lines and put chord patterns below the lead lines.

Ha, I used the term"plug and play"in another thread today re. Reg comping approach. A lot there with limited number voicings....

Thanks, reg.

[Boston Joe]

So, I want to try to apply Reg's substitution system to a standard, so I'm going to try "Whisper Not" because it's one I happen to know well and don't need to look up the chords.

So, first four bars:

Original changes
C-7 |A-7b5 D7 | G-7 | % |

Lets do tritone subs on the second bar first
C-7 |Eb-7b5 Ab7#11 | G-7 | % |

MM on first bar:
C-M7 |Eb-7b5 Ab7#11 | G-7 | % |

MM gives us access to some other chords:
C-M7 EbM7+ |Eb-7b5 Ab7#11 | G-7 | % |

Backcycle (sort of) on third bar:
C-M7 EbM7+ |Eb-7b5 Ab7#11 | A-7 D7 | G-7 |

Is this more or less the idea?

[Boston Joe]

BTW, I'm at work, so that's all theoretical. Can't check it on guitar till I get home.

[Reg]

Hey Joe... so generally when you sub the sub for altered II V, the sub would be different. I hear Eb-9 to Ab13 with #11 going to the G-. And then if your comping over the melody... you would also need to cover, probably F#-7 approach to the G-7... keep the harmonic rhythm for melody etc...

I might play...

C-7 Bb13 / Eb-11 Ab13 (F#-7) / G-7 F9sus / Bb-9 Eb9#11 / D- etc..

I'm just going off my head also... But I do know the melody and when I notate chords... I'm generally just implying where I would pull from to comp in some style, I generally don't just play block chords etc... I voice lead lines.

[Boston Joe]

OK. I wasn't really paying too much attention to the specific extensions - just trying to get the general idea. Did you bring in the F9sus in the third bar from a particular scale (maybe thinking of the G-7 as Aolean?), or just as an approach chord to the Bb?

[Reg]

To both support melody, imply harmony and basically give me sound I would want to create lead line with... The thing Joe is when you use extended anything you generally have the beginning, middle and end as well as all the parts somewhat worked out. You try and have what you choose to use be organized as to be able to work through out the tune. Even when you micro tonal target... you want there to be reference and organization with basically everything your going to use with the tune. Even when you jump ship and modulate all aspects, you still want common references, at least as many as you feel is needed to make the music feel tonal to what your doing. Tonal can have pretty dissonance relationships etc.

So generally when you start applying approach to a tune... you start with analysis, your basic reference. I'll try and record playing the tune at gig and post a live version of using approach

[edh]

Cool Reg. Looking forward to the video.

[Boston Joe]

To both support melody, imply harmony and basically give me sound I would want to create lead line with... The thing Joe is when you use extended anything you generally have the beginning, middle and end as well as all the parts somewhat worked out. You try and have what you choose to use be organized as to be able to work through out the tune. Even when you micro tonal target... you want there to be reference and organization with basically everything your going to use with the tune. Even when you jump ship and modulate all aspects, you still want common references, at least as many as you feel is needed to make the music feel tonal to what your doing. Tonal can have pretty dissonance relationships etc.

So generally when you start applying approach to a tune... you start with analysis, your basic reference. I'll try and record playing the tune at gig and post a live version of using approach

Thanks, Reg, that would be awesome!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey, reg. Spent some time with these the last few months. Really great stuff. Been digging out some melodic minor from your videos as well. Wondered if you might consider doing a similar post on voicings for melodic minor?

Anyway, this is my favorite reg move lately:

X X 6 5 6 3
X X 6 5 6 4
X X 6 5 6 3

I love the ambiguity and the multiple ways it can be used. Basically a Lydian voicing if you think about it from the Ab, but I've also noticed that it's probably viewed as more of a default move for m7b5

X 5 6 5 6 X
X X 6 5 6 3
X X 6 5 6 4
X X 6 5 6 3

...of course all becomes the same I guess....9th etc. as well.

Puts the recurring Reg phrase "gives you access to" in stark perspective.

Here are basic straight Dominant voicing I use for chord movement... I'll put them in Bb. Try and hear all the lead line possibilities... I only put in one #9 but you can create different lead lines with blue notes or whatever the style your playing implies. You can create the lines in same area of voicings.., or as I do move around, I use octave transposition and juxtaposition all the time.... I jump around with the voicings... just like soloing with single lines.

All these voicings are derived from my very basic diatonic voicing constructed on root 6th,5th and 4th strings... that I have posted before.

Don't get these basic voicing mixed up with how I use these voicing with my expanded diatonic relationships application... of using these voicings All these voicings are with reference to Bb dominant, Bb7

Basic Bb13

6 X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

X X 6 5 6 4
X X 8 7 8 6
X X 9 8 9 7
X X 8 7 8 6

6 X 6 7 8 X
X 5 6 5 6 X

X X 6 5 4 4
X X 6 5 3 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 5 3 6

X X 6 7 8 8
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6... from X 5 6 5 6 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6

X X 8 10 9 10
X X 8 8 9 8
X X 8 8 9 10
X X 8 8 9 11
X X 8 8 9 8

X 11 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 13 13 13 15
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11

down 8vb or stay up there,

X X 1 1 1 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here are some basic MM fingerings.

Someone had requested grids for this. So, I thought I may as well post here. Please let me know of any mistakes. pdf attached.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey, Reg. Good to see you posting this week. I've been doing some harmonic minor and was just curious as to whether these are close to what you use. Check out the melodic minor in the post above as well, if you get the chance. I can re-edit any of them. I'm also curious as to how you name the modes of Harmonic Minor.

Anyway, I'm mostly doing this for posterity. I've found that I can work this stuff out pretty easily without diagrams, since really shoring up my major and melodic minor reference fingerings. It really does help to tie everything together and not have to use grids or keyboard for reference etc. I also find that I now "think" in terms of chord extensions much more easily, as they relate to these scale fingerings, because they're always in the same spacial relationship to finger/position. Mentally "practicing" away from the instrument is much easier as well.

Anyway, thanks for all of your help.

P.S. Last thing, I'm curious as to how you'd advise learning these, in terms of key. I initially learned them in E minor (to relate to the original reference - relative G major fingerings). I've posted these in G minor, but would assume this is slightly different from what you would recommend? I know that in the end, it's all the same, and you should be able to relate parallel or relative. But I was just curious. I could edit that aspect as well. Thanks.

[destinytot]

Anyway, just scratching the surface with some of this has done more for my ears, for harmony, than just about anything else in years. Thanks, always.

+1

[matt.guitarteacher]

I did this for myself, but thought I would share here as well. These altered pentatonics are a big part of "seeing" what Reg is doing in some of his videos. I have trouble getting my brain around multiple contexts for melodic minor, even with ALL notes present, but these are a different beast entirely.

It's basically the same thing several times.
Row 2 is all fingerings with scale degrees spelled in context of Ab7#11 (Lydian Dominant).
Row 3 is identical fingerings spelled in the context of D altered.
Row 4 is identical fingerings spelled in the context of the parent MM scale (Eb Melodic Minor).
(The first row is spelled in the context of position-as-chord, and I kind of hate it actually. But it's there, so whatever...)

Again, this just helps my brain.

The triangles are 2nd finger "starting pitches/reference pitches/roots (if you want to think of each position as a mode". The squares are 1st finger references, per Reg's original sheet.

Please let me know of mistakes in either spelling or fingering. Thanks!

So... most already know and use the five basic pentatonic patterns, see attachment 128
Here are altered pentatonic patterns that I use which are from Melodic Minor. see attachment 127

It's a little tricky, the patterns are from Ebmm and there is no Eb or Gb in the patterns, but they cover when using MM... Typically in Jazz .... MM is just a door that is opened. It's not used functionally... think more like how Blue Notes are used.... not as embellishments, but more modally and organized.

I typically always use Expanded Diatonic type of relationships, example.

The Ab13#11 can always have the related up a 3rd relationship...C-7b5 (9,11,b13), and down a third,
the II chord of Ebmm...F-7 (b9,11,13)

Long story short... with MM, the IV chord, Ab13#11 and up a 3rd...C-7b5, and

the V7b13 chord Bb7b13 and up a 3rd to D-7b5 (D7alt)

Tend to sound pretty hip when developing solos

And of course the Sub relationships between Ab13#11 and D7alter can be developed also.

And you also need more... but here are the basic altered Pentatonic patterns... they're nothing new, I started using then back in 70, 71.... Check them out and I'll try and out up a vid using them in context etc...


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