Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

[jazzuki]

Reg. Always enjoy your vids and glad you pointed out one really big one, that when you are playing you are thinking chordally/ progression wise where all your lines come from. Ron Eschete says the same, when playing he "hears" chord progressions and is always trying to resolve them.. Great tutorials Reg.

[MarkRhodes]

Carol thinks basic chords and cycles.... because that's the way she plays. She is a bassist right.

Well, she was a pro guitarist who got offers for studio work. She only started playing bass when the bassist for a session didn't show and she covered for him. She did like the bass and got more and more calls to play bass, so "the rest is history." But she still plays guitar (and teaches guitar.) She says what she teaches about chords and cycles was what all the people she played with knew: horn players, piano players, you name it. It was just the way they thought about music.

[guitarbard]

This is the best thread I've read. Thanks so much for your effort, Reg. Thanks for the YT's, too.

[destinytot]

Reg very kindly responded elsewhere, but I'm re-posting my request in this magnificent thread. I'm asking Reg for some guidance on fingerings and applications for pentatonics and blues. Thank you in advance!

[Reg]

Hey Destinytot

I'm not really sure where to post etc... I'll probable post in a few, and can always repost in different section as needed.

[Reg]

So... most already know and use the five basic pentatonic patterns, see attachment 128
Here are altered pentatonic patterns that I use which are from Melodic Minor. see attachment 127

It's a little tricky, the patterns are from Ebmm and there is no Eb or Gb in the patterns, but they cover when using MM... Typically in Jazz .... MM is just a door that is opened. It's not used functionally... think more like how Blue Notes are used.... not as embellishments, but more modally and organized.

I typically always use Expanded Diatonic type of relationships, example.

The Ab13#11 can always have the related up a 3rd relationship...C-7b5 (9,11,b13), and down a third,
the II chord of Ebmm...F-7 (b9,11,13)

Long story short... with MM, the IV chord, Ab13#11 and up a 3rd...C-7b5, and

the V7b13 chord Bb7b13 and up a 3rd to D-7b5 (D7alt)

Tend to sound pretty hip when developing solos

And of course the Sub relationships between Ab13#11 and D7alter can be developed also.

And you also need more... but here are the basic altered Pentatonic patterns... they're nothing new, I started using then back in 70, 71.... Check them out and I'll try and out up a vid using them in context etc...


a

[kris]

thanks a lot Reg.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks, Reg. I learned the five pentatonic shapes as a kid but I haven't worked with them much in a long, long time.

[guitarbard]

May I take it as a given that the Jazz Minor Pentatonics are built 1 2 3 5 6 (and 1), as are typical pentatonics? I ask cuz I can download the pdfs. but until I figure out how to clean out my preview(overloaded), the fans go nuts. And I don't mind putting them together myself, if I know what to do. Thanks.

PS Disregard, they load in perfectly on my iPad. Thanks again.

[destinytot]

Love this 'sixth-string-reference' concept .

Yeah, Reg! Please keep this Hansel-and-Gretel trail of sweet stuff coming!

[destinytot]

Re. altered pentatonics, the following comment (by the teacher in video below) tells me that Reg is giving out 'the Glengarry leads' - gold*:

"... since there are 7 modes of the melodic minor, that means theres are 7 different pentatonic b6s, (or functional major triad arpeggios with the 2 (=9) and the b6 (=#5) added, as you are thinking)
so, over a G in the bass:
Gsus7b9 - G Dorian b2 scale - C pentatonic b6
Gmi69 - G melodic minor - D pentatonic b6
G7#9#5 - G alt (or Super Locrian) - Eb pentatonic b6
Gmi7b5 - G half dim (or Locrian #2) - F pentatonic b6
G13#11 - G Lydian Dominant - A pentatonic b6
Gmaj7#5 - G Lydian Augmented - B pentatonic b6
G7b6 - G mixolydian b6 - G pentatonic b6"

*a reference to:
(no inappropriate content)

[Durban]

[QUOTE=Reg;646060] using then back in 70, 71.... Check them out and I'll try and out up a vid using them in context etc...


Hi Reg, thanks for your amazing stuff, I did post altered pentatonics, a while back, but related to altered scale as opposed to this which is related to mm, Alt=mm up 1/2.


Re your pdf 127, i get D7 alt or Dm7b5 in Eb mm,

i cant get the A7#11, should it perhaps be Ab7#11 which is diatonic to Eb mm,

you do say Ab13#11 which is IV Eb mm and TS for Dalt.


I am aware of your any chord in mm, style i use that a lot, I got it from you a year or two ago.

Not just using chords from mm but pulling scales from mm, i guess just re-arranging notes/chords in melodic minor, dropping roots or 3rd etc etc. You use the word pull from, even though non technical just says.

I hope i have grasped your concepts.

D

[57classic]

Salut Reg,

Thanks again for all you give on this forum and greetings to all in this thread!

Here I am again with some info about how I'm doing with your major and mm fingerings, and a few questions.

I wrote out the 9th arpeggio's of the major scale modes, to use in addition to the 7 position fingerings and arpeggio's you gave in your first post in your Techniques for Picking and Fingerings... basics and on to the speed of Jazz-thread. I switched from 5 positions, and it doesn't disappoint at all. Your fingerings are very logical, and they grip into eachother nicely. I'm already good on my way adapting my earlier arpeggio's and bebop scales to them, and using this in the tunes I know.

I also wrote out the 7th, 9th and complete arpeggio's, and the movable top 4 string set arpeggio's of the remaining 6 modes of melodic minor position fingerings you gave in this thread. As you said, the time spent notating helped getting a grip on it. Writing it out also helped with reading in general. I'm practising the 7 melodic minor position fingerings mechanically. For anyone interested I added them to this post.

Now I want to start practising using the MM modes. As a test area for my new jazztools I like to use the chords of Autumn Leaves. Got a question about this. Forgetting the melody for convinience, would this be a way to use all MM modes in AL. I don't mind if it's somewhat contrived:

On this chord ---- Use this mode:
Cm7 -------------- Dorian b9, Phrygian#6(II)
F7 ---------------- Lydian Dom (IV)
Bbmaj7 ---------- Lydian Augmented (III)
Ebmaj7 ---------- Lydian Augmented (III)
Am7b5 ----------- Locrian#2=Aeolianb5 (VI)
D7 ---------------- D7alt (VII) and Mixo b13 (V)
Gm --------------- Gmm (I)

A question on the fingerings in general. Somewhere you said you use different fingerings for different sounds. So, is it true that the above fingerings after a while get to be more like points on the fretboard you see in your head, on which you can place any finger you like? And/or do you still in spite of this follow the fingerings as much as you can just because you can leave out visual orientation in this way?

[Vladan]

................

Can't say much about MM Modes, but I quite enjoyed your Autumn Leaves clip.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey, reg. Pasted this from elsewhere. Probably fits better here . Thanks for any help.

I was trying to help this thread get into that....layers thing. I though that was what the OP was after.

Yeah, I think it was basically. I'm with Groyniad in my fascination with it lately. One thing I love about these concepts/approaches is that they're basically bolt-on, and can be very entry-level-accessible for amateurs (like me) as well. With a little consideration for secondary harmonic references, my not-so-hip melodic minor sounds much better without having worked on anything "separately".

The main things I guess I need to work on are my melodic minor voicings generally, and then, for the single-line stuff, harmonic references to relative major and min7b5. I'm pretty cool with playing over Cmaj7 by referencing A minor or E minor (and it's II V's etc), at least the conceptual, aural part of it. (The playing is coming along I guess).

But if I'm subbing things for A minor, I mainly reference the dominant (E altered). I don't really understand how you reference the relative major. It always seems to be going the wrong direction on the hip scale. Subbing relative minor from major always seems to add all kinds of great blue notes etc, whereas playing C over A minor... , I'm probably not understanding the kinds of approaches.

Same thing with m7b5 as extended diatonic sub. If I sub Bm7b5 for G7, I'm mostly at G altered, basically. I just don't know as much about that approach. I know a basic vanilla mm from the 3rd for m7b5, but that's basically altered, and I'd assume pretty vanilla.

I've really enjoyed all of your ideas. I swore I'd get some MM together this year, and it was originally just on a "something I have to do" list. It's turned into something much more satisfying musically. Much more enjoyable with a wealth of application possibilities. I never thought that I'd hear things the way that I do now or be playing using some of the ideas I do now. I'm still pretty basic, but I have a whole new palette for my basic stuff. I'm grateful. Thanks always.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Same thing with m7b5 as extended diatonic sub. If I sub Bm7b5 for G7, I'm mostly at G altered, basically. I just don't know as much about that approach. I know a basic vanilla mm from the 3rd for m7b5, but that's basically altered, and I'd assume pretty vanilla.

not altered...Lydian dominant...

[Reg]

Hey Patrick... thanks, great wk. So I use 12 fret, 7 position fingerings as my basic default fingerings reference. My default or non-thinking... my way of seeing , hearing and then the technical way of realizing etc... They are my natural, internalized understanding of how the fretboard on the guitar works. Not the only... just the starting reference. The actual fingerings that I play when performing can be almost anything... but the way I visualize or hear in my head are the fingering I've always talked about. That's where I start from...

What this has allowed me to be able to do ... is always know, feel, however or whatever I'm doing on the guitar. I don't need to think, unless I choose to... for effect, phrasing, articulation, feel... even for show etc... I don't need to watch my neck unless again I want to.

The other aspect is I can use physical relationships on the fretboard to create, see or develop when performing. There are tons of almost mechanical relationships that can help jumpstart improve... help you get going in a direction that you want to go.

Hey Matt... so yea... Your playing a G7 and say the target is F#-7, Maybe bII7 to Imin7

That B-7b5 is like a harmonic passage, it gives me access to different harmonic relationship, or if your a melodic guy, it gives you a source for organizing what your hearing, a harmonic source,,, so the rest of us have a road map and at least have a direction of where your going.

That B-7b5 can be related II of bVII7#11 or B-7b5 E7#11 to F#-9.... Lead line F F# G#
So you would be accessing Bmm

Or B-7b5 to E7alt to F#-9.... now your accessing Fmm

Or use the diatonic sub of that B-7b5...call B-7b5 a VII-7b5 , up a 3rd would be the II-7 chord or D-7
Or if you call the B-7b5 the 6th degree of Dmm... the sub could be D-ma7 to say C#7alt then the F#-9

It generally... or how I approach.... is to make choices of what type of functional movement I want. Or what I believe the music implies.

One of the cool aspects of mm, is all the different types of functional movements that are usable.

[destinytot]

So... most already know and use the five basic pentatonic patterns, see attachment 128
Here are altered pentatonic patterns that I use which are from Melodic Minor. see attachment 127

It's a little tricky, the patterns are from Ebmm and there is no Eb or Gb in the patterns, but they cover when using MM... Typically in Jazz .... MM is just a door that is opened. It's not used functionally... think more like how Blue Notes are used.... not as embellishments, but more modally and organized.

I typically always use Expanded Diatonic type of relationships, example.

The Ab13#11 can always have the related up a 3rd relationship...C-7b5 (9,11,b13), and down a third,
the II chord of Ebmm...F-7 (b9,11,13)

Long story short... with MM, the IV chord, Ab13#11 and up a 3rd...C-7b5, and

the V7b13 chord Bb7b13 and up a 3rd to D-7b5 (D7alt)

Tend to sound pretty hip when developing solos

And of course the Sub relationships between Ab13#11 and D7alter can be developed also.

And you also need more... but here are the basic altered Pentatonic patterns... they're nothing new, I started using then back in 70, 71.... Check them out and I'll try and out up a vid using them in context etc...


a

Thanks, Reg!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks, Reg. That's a lot of help.
So, your mm fingerings are basically related to parallel major fingerings. How about harmonic minor ? do you relate it to relative major or parallel? I've always assumed relative major (sharping the 5th of major scales), but saw someone recently who did it flatting 3 and 6 of parallel major.

Seems like you like to reference everything to major , so I'm assuming the first way?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Or use the diatonic sub of that B-7b5...call B-7b5 a VII-7b5 , up a 3rd would be the II-7 chord or D-7
Or if you call the B-7b5 the 6th degree of Dmm... the sub could be D-ma7 to say C#7alt then the F#-9

yeah thanks for that. That one's cool too. Always forget to think of it that way. Most everything else I've ever looked at talks about these things in terms of function ( tonic, subdominant, dominant) more than the up or down minor third. Cool to sub III for V and VII for II as well. Different way of looking at it , and lots of cool blue notes there.

Thanks, reg.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Cool moment today... Saw Bobby stern's post about a new blog post of his , with melodic minor étude . It's basically pretty simple on paper, but the kind of thing we guitarists generally have a lot of trouble with playing on our instrument. Basically a DESCENDING pattern of ASCENDING thirds using melodic minor.

Anyway, I was able to work it out in seven positions (at least the first half), having practiced that descending scale of ascending thirds a good bit the last little while. As I was playing it,I thought about how difficult it would be to work out without having actually practiced the technical part ahead of time. It's got all those crazy left-hand finger rolls. This kind of thing, at least with melodic minor, would've been just frustratingly difficult year or so ago. Crazy that these things can be so difficult for guitarists, when they're pretty simple for other instrumentalists. It's very true what you've always said about guitarists lack of technical work and not being able to read/improvise something which you can't basically PLAY in the first place.

Since your technique thread last year, and a lot of your posts since then, as well as older stuff I found that you posted, I've made profound steps toward better understanding the fretboard , improved technique, and mostly... enjoyment of the instrument overall.

It's funny how something which might be considered "busywork" holds the potential of actually INCREASING your enjoyment of playing (when you can figure out how to do it musically and vary the work). I'm continually amazed at the improvement in my ear's/fingers and this sense that things are slowing down and becoming more relaxed as a result of knowledge of where things are on the fret fretboard.

Reg, wanted to say thanks for several good kicks in the butt over the years to get me moving more in the right direction. I think I used to see a lot of what you're always talking about as just being impossible, or more just for really advanced, pro-level players. Now, I'm seeing in a very real, personal way, that it's of tremendous benefit to players of ANY level. I'm still an amateur jazzer, but I've seen more improvement in the last year than in several previous.

[PMB]

Thanks, Reg. That's a lot of help.
So, your mm fingerings are basically related to parallel major fingerings. How about harmonic minor ? do you relate it to relative major or parallel? I've always assumed relative major (sharping the 5th of major scales), but saw someone recently who did it flatting 3 and 6 of parallel major.

Seems like you like to reference everything to major, so I'm assuming the first way?

A lot of people have mentioned how CAGED "jumps the shark" when it comes to minor fingerings. The problem here is that the approach is built around moveable open major chord forms that don't convert to their parallel minor forms in a consistent manner. The most practical solution may be to consider minor fingerings (particularly the harmonic minor considering its tonal function) in terms of their relative major counterparts as Barry Greene does in this video:

Without wishing to speak for Reg, his fingerings are based upon a more consistent, continuous grid than that offered by CAGED so a simple conversion from the parallel major for harmonic minor fingerings seems to make sense.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The most practical solution may be to consider minor fingerings (particularly the harmonic minor considering its tonal function) in terms of their relative major counterparts as Barry Greene does in this video:

Yeah, the tonal function is the thing. I actually stated that kind of poorly. When I said:

I've always assumed relative major (sharping the 5th of major scales), but saw someone recently who did it flatting 3 and 6 of parallel major.

Seems like you like to reference everything to major , so I'm assuming the first way?

I meant relative minor. "Referencing major " meaning the major FINGERING.... , relative minor is only one pitch different from major, where as parallel is two. The tonal function thing that you mention is the real consideration, with secondary dominants and such .

[PMB]

Cool moment today... Saw Bobby stern's post about a new blog post of his , with melodic minor étude . It's basically pretty simple on paper, but the kind of thing we guitarists generally have a lot of trouble with playing on our instrument. Basically a DESCENDING pattern of ASCENDING thirds using melodic minor.

Anyway, I was able to work it out in seven positions (at least the first half), having practiced that descending scale of ascending thirds a good bit the last little while. As I was playing it,I thought about how difficult it would be to work out without having actually practiced the technical part ahead of time. It's got all those crazy left-hand finger rolls. This kind of thing, at least with melodic minor, would've been just frustratingly difficult year or so ago. Crazy that these things can be so difficult for guitarists, when they're pretty simple for other instrumentalists. It's very true what you've always said about guitarists lack of technical work and not being able to read/improvise something which you can't basically PLAY in the first place.

Matt, here's a melodic minor scales, arpeggios and modes warmup in the first of the seven positions that I devised for students. It progressively builds up from 3rds through triads to seventh arpeggios (extended arpeggios could also be included at a later stage) and complete scale/modes. The variations listed incorporate a lot of those difficult reverse patterns requiring finger rolls that you mentioned. Let me know what you think.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=PMB;654678]Matt, here's a melodic minor scales, arpeggios and modes warmup in the first of the seven positions that I devised for students. It progressively builds up from 3rds through triads to seventh arpeggios (extended arpeggios could also be included at a later stage) and complete scale/modes.
/QUOTE]

That's impressive! Thanks for sharing it.