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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Jens
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04-04-2012 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JensL
In particular, which diminished scale would you prefer over that Ebdim chord -- whole-half or half-whole?
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Originally Posted by robywon1
He probably wrote the chords before the tune. He did Dm-G7-C twice so he had to think of something for the next 8 bars
There's no particular link between F#m7b5 and Fm7 except the chromatic one.
That's my take on it anyway.Last edited by ragman1; 10-09-2016 at 05:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Originally Posted by twodogs09
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Eh, perhaps bringing things further off topic, but I wasn't sure how to articulate how I hear this change, but I feel like I hear it ok. I can't explain it too well, but after reading this thread I was curious to just try to play unaccompanied and try to make the changes clear, so here's a go of that...it's occasionally mentioned on the board that it's probably easier to just post a clip rather than try to explain something.
Here I try to play the changes very simply
F#m7b5 - - - |Fm7 - - - |Em7 - - - |Ebdim7 - - -
Dm7 - - - |G7 - - - | Cma7 - - - | % - - -
I'm trying to loop those 8 bars and make the transitions and pulse very clear even though I'm just playing solo...nothing magical, just trying to play the harmony, start very straight and go a little bit further from there. I of course hit some snags here and there...
Last edited by JakeAcci; 04-04-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
In "I Get a Kick out of You" he repeats the ii-V-I nine times (with some variation of the "I", but not of the ii-V) before thinking he needs to do anything different. And then it's just a couple of ii-Vs in other keys before he comes back to the same old ii-V-I 4 more times to end it.
(I'm exaggerating but not much)
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Because of the Eb in the melody on the Fm7 (most IVm stuff is using melodic minor) I also sometimes make more blues like phrases on the E on F#m7b5 and Em7 and Eb on Fm7 and Ebdim. It is not standard bebop I guess but seems to work for that tune.
Jens
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Originally Posted by JohnoL
... but the OP was about the harmonic connection between the F#m7b5 and the next chord Fm7 and there isn't one except a chromatic descent.
'Corcovado', for instance, begins Am6 - Abo - Gm7 - F#7b5 - FM7. There you can see a connection because the Am6 could be a D9 (A bass) going down the cycle: D - G - C - F with a diminished passing chord (the F#7b5 subs for C7).
That progression makes sense but in N&D it doesn't, it's just a chromatic run-down to the final C.
Anyway, who cares? It just sounds nice! The genius of the tune isn't in the chords, which are fairly easy, it's in the memorable melody.
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Originally Posted by JensL
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Originally Posted by JonR
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Then Jobim made it into a self-referential gag on "One Note Samba" .
BTW, if anyone wants a good (if lengthy) discussion on N&D from some real jazz heads, try this:
Night and Day - Jazz Bulletin Board
(they get into analysis about post #26; still no tips on improv scales tho...)
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JohnoL
Just a further thought about starting on an F#.
He could have filled the same number of bars like this (cyclic backtracking):
F#m7 - B7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - C
The chromatic run-down is just a variation, that's all.
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JonR
Yes, I thought of 'One Note Samba' when I was posting that.
God, I loathe all this theory! Trouble is it's necessary to know what you're doing.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
B7 would harmonize the melody note (D#/Eb) perfectly.
The A7 (on its own) is a little more problematic (melody D-C#-C-B), but works as a kind of multiple A7sus-A7-Am7 bar.
But of course this doesn't sound nearly as cool as the original!
Here's a few more options to mix and match (tho none of them beat Cole Porter's):
Code:|F#m7b5 - B7sus - |Emaj7 - - - |Bm7 - E7 - |Ebmaj7 (7-6-#5)|Dm7 |Em7b5 A7sus |D (maj7 7 6)| |C#dim7 - - - |Bmaj7 - - - |Em7b5 - - - |A(sus A7 Am - | |F#7(b5/C?)- - - |Bmaj7 - - - |Ebmaj7/Bb - - - |Ab7#11 - - - |
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Originally Posted by ragman1
You need to be in control of the sounds. To be able to imagine the sound you want in your head, and be able to find that sound reliably. And you don't need theoretical labels (still less explanations) to do that.
And even if you hit a note that doesn't sound like you expect, that's nothing to be scared of: it's an opportunity.
Like Miles said: "Do not fear wrong notes; there are none."
(I think I just posted that somewhere else... )
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Wow... we're talking about Night and Day... it's a very simple jazz standard... not complicated... not meant to be... very singable straight ahead melody and basic changes used in very standard jazz style...
On a different note... Jon, your rant was fun.
I'll make a video of playing analysis... if really needed. I would dig seeing someone else also do the same... there are basically only a few approaches generally used ...Reg
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 04-05-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
Harmonization is like a drug... You need a bigger and bigger hit to get the same effect... you can't leave a simple tune alone... "man, I just gotta put some extensions in there... ooh, so good ..and now substitute this sucker... oh yeah, listen to that...".
eventually you forget why you started, you lose your job, lose your mind...
you got to be strong! I tried to give up (clean my head out with some folk and rock), and I've been straight for a while, but somehow it's too easy to relapse...
Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by JonR
We've got some 'real jazz heads' here already.
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Hey Thanks...I think. real jazz head. I've definitely been called much worse...
But if we're only looking for scales, or note collections for improve sources... that's extremely simple.
I'll list choices in somewhat closest choices in relationship to analysis and tonal implications... there are obviously many choices and most use a few all the time. Very rarely does one pitch collect cover.
That's too easy... I'm not doing all the work...I'll list how to find...
1) all the -7b5 chords found from different scales etc...
examples; Maj. Scale... VII-7b5 or 7th degree...locrian
MM... 6th and 7th degrees... similocrian or Altered
H. Min...2nd degree, Locrian #6
H. Maj... 2nd degree. Dorian b5
Dim. half whole... or any synthetic or symmetrical scale...
2) pull from implied related V7 chord... ex. D Dorian naturally implies G Mixolydian.... there are implied V7's for all the rest of -7b5 choices. And you can mix and match.
3) pull from implied Sub.V chord... starts to get a little more complicated... but still just a numbers game.
4) you can continue to pull from other relationships...-7b5 chords are functionally related to V9 chords. D-7b5 and Bb9. Min7b5's are very close to #9 chords, D-7b5 and D7#9.... now we're really starting to open doors... your ears will begin to hear... there are a lot of relationships...
5) use Modal style of functional relationships...
6) pull from any Chord pattern... which makes use of -7b5 chord. ( think of standards which use that chord.... that series of chords is a "chord Pattern").
We could go on... but why...
Anyway approach each chord in same manor... and you'll have a mechanical method of selecting pitch collections.. Just because we say Scale... doesn't imply play that way... the word scale is simply an easy method of implying all the chord tones.
Now you need to make choices... use different methods or different harmonic concepts to help create application principles... or use trial and error...
Or you can embellish melodies or melodic ideas, pulling from your choices of harmony.... or use random chromatic notes that you like or have heard others use... or trial and error.
You'll be amazed how well different pitch collections work or sound when used together in organized or recognizable applications.
OK enough BS... off to gig. Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale