Night and Day in the Key of C - What is the function of the F#-7b5

[JensL]

Guys, have we already discussed the following in this thread? Maybe the terminology made it go right over my head.

Let's look at the progression in question:

| F#mb5 | Fm7 | Em7 | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7...

The melody over the first four measure here is basically descending chromatically. How do you improvise over those descending chords?

Well in this thread we are only discussing the first chord, you have to start other threads about the other chords

Jens

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Well in this thread we are only discussing the first chord, you have to start other threads about the other chords

Jens

D'oh!

In particular, which diminished scale would you prefer over that Ebdim chord -- whole-half or half-whole?

[ragman1]

Theory question. On Night and Day in the Key of C, what is the function of the F#-7b5 resolving to the Fm? I hear it all the time on endings also.

It's an F#m7b5 because the chords backtrack chromatically down to the C.

He probably wrote the chords before the tune. He did Dm-G7-C twice so he had to think of something for the next 8 bars

There's no particular link between F#m7b5 and Fm7 except the chromatic one.

That's my take on it anyway.

[ragman1]

How do you improvise over those descending chords?

Arpeggiate them. Keep it simple. You can complicate the 2-5-1 at the end.

[JohnoL]

Hi All,

Some very wise counsel already - there is another thing that's worth bearing in mind, though, which is that F#m7b5 is essentially the same thing as Am6.

I went along those lines but I keep seeing a D9 instead ot the Am6.

[JakeAcci]

Eh, perhaps bringing things further off topic, but I wasn't sure how to articulate how I hear this change, but I feel like I hear it ok. I can't explain it too well, but after reading this thread I was curious to just try to play unaccompanied and try to make the changes clear, so here's a go of that...it's occasionally mentioned on the board that it's probably easier to just post a clip rather than try to explain something.

Here I try to play the changes very simply

F#m7b5 - - - |Fm7 - - - |Em7 - - - |Ebdim7 - - -
Dm7 - - - |G7 - - - | Cma7 - - - | % - - -

I'm trying to loop those 8 bars and make the transitions and pulse very clear even though I'm just playing solo...nothing magical, just trying to play the harmony, start very straight and go a little bit further from there. I of course hit some snags here and there...

[JonR]

He probably wrote the chords before the tune. He did Dm-G7-C twice so he had to think of something for the next 8 bars

Not too far from the truth, IMO - except he wasn't always as keen to do something different.
In "I Get a Kick out of You" he repeats the ii-V-I nine times (with some variation of the "I", but not of the ii-V) before thinking he needs to do anything different. And then it's just a couple of ii-Vs in other keys before he comes back to the same old ii-V-I 4 more times to end it.
(I'm exaggerating but not much)

[JensL]

D'oh!

In particular, which diminished scale would you prefer over that Ebdim chord -- whole-half or half-whole?

I would suggest E harmonic minor, or just using the arpeggio. I almost never use dim scales for dim chords.

Because of the Eb in the melody on the Fm7 (most IVm stuff is using melodic minor) I also sometimes make more blues like phrases on the E on F#m7b5 and Em7 and Eb on Fm7 and Ebdim. It is not standard bebop I guess but seems to work for that tune.

Jens

[ragman1]

I went along those lines but I keep seeing a D9 instead ot the Am6.

We know m7b5 chords are also a m6 or dom9 but it depends on the context. It's not just a matter of swapping them - like the word 'bow' in english can mean the front of a ship or a forward bend but they ain't the same!

... but the OP was about the harmonic connection between the F#m7b5 and the next chord Fm7 and there isn't one except a chromatic descent.

'Corcovado', for instance, begins Am6 - Abo - Gm7 - F#7b5 - FM7. There you can see a connection because the Am6 could be a D9 (A bass) going down the cycle: D - G - C - F with a diminished passing chord (the F#7b5 subs for C7).

That progression makes sense but in N&D it doesn't, it's just a chromatic run-down to the final C.

Anyway, who cares? It just sounds nice! The genius of the tune isn't in the chords, which are fairly easy, it's in the memorable melody.

[ragman1]

I also sometimes make more blues like phrases

I agree. Blues sounds work well with this tune.

[ragman1]

Not too far from the truth, IMO - except he wasn't always as keen to do something different.
In "I Get a Kick out of You" he repeats the ii-V-I nine times (with some variation of the "I", but not of the ii-V) before thinking he needs to do anything different. And then it's just a couple of ii-Vs in other keys before he comes back to the same old ii-V-I 4 more times to end it.
(I'm exaggerating but not much)

Oh, he was a great repeater - 34 A's in the intro of N&D! You've got to be good to make that work.

[ragman1]

That was great

[JonR]

Oh, he was a great repeater - 34 A's in the intro of N&D! You've got to be good to make that work.

The idea there was the "beat of the tom-tom", of course, trying to evoke a primal "jungle" vibe. (with just enough harmonic movement under it to keep it interesting.)

Then Jobim made it into a self-referential gag on "One Note Samba" .

BTW, if anyone wants a good (if lengthy) discussion on N&D from some real jazz heads, try this:
Night and Day - Jazz Bulletin Board
(they get into analysis about post #26; still no tips on improv scales tho...)

[ragman1]

JohnoL

Just a further thought about starting on an F#.

He could have filled the same number of bars like this (cyclic backtracking):

F#m7 - B7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - C

The chromatic run-down is just a variation, that's all.

[ragman1]

JonR

Yes, I thought of 'One Note Samba' when I was posting that.

God, I loathe all this theory! Trouble is it's necessary to know what you're doing.

[JonR]

#

JohnoL

Just a further thought about starting on an F#.

He could have filled the same number of bars like this (cyclic backtracking):

F#m7 - B7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - C

The chromatic run-down is just a variation, that's all.

I was going to say the exact same thing. (Except no need to invoke F#m7. F#m7b5 is quite correct for a ii chord moving towards Em via B7, and of course - in this context - has the advantage of sharing more notes with the previous chord. Not that F#m7 sounds wrong...)

B7 would harmonize the melody note (D#/Eb) perfectly.
The A7 (on its own) is a little more problematic (melody D-C#-C-B), but works as a kind of multiple A7sus-A7-Am7 bar.

But of course this doesn't sound nearly as cool as the original!

Here's a few more options to mix and match (tho none of them beat Cole Porter's):

 
|F#m7b5 - B7sus - |Emaj7 - - - |Bm7  -   E7  -  |Ebmaj7 (7-6-#5)|Dm7
                               |Em7b5    A7sus  |D   (maj7 7  6)|
|C#dim7 -   -   - |Bmaj7 - - - |Em7b5  -  -  -  |A(sus A7  Am - |
|F#7(b5/C?)-  - - |Bmaj7 - - - |Ebmaj7/Bb - - - |Ab7#11 -  -  - |

[JonR]

God, I loathe all this theory! Trouble is it's necessary to know what you're doing.

Not really. Not in theoretical terms, anyhow.
You need to be in control of the sounds. To be able to imagine the sound you want in your head, and be able to find that sound reliably. And you don't need theoretical labels (still less explanations) to do that.
And even if you hit a note that doesn't sound like you expect, that's nothing to be scared of: it's an opportunity.
Like Miles said: "Do not fear wrong notes; there are none."

(I think I just posted that somewhere else... )

[Reg]

Wow... we're talking about Night and Day... it's a very simple jazz standard... not complicated... not meant to be... very singable straight ahead melody and basic changes used in very standard jazz style...

On a different note... Jon, your rant was fun.

I'll make a video of playing analysis... if really needed. I would dig seeing someone else also do the same... there are basically only a few approaches generally used ...Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

JohnoL

Just a further thought about starting on an F#.

He could have filled the same number of bars like this (cyclic backtracking):

F#m7 - B7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - C

The chromatic run-down is just a variation, that's all.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. As JonR mentions, that A7 is a bit problematic. I guess the original Ebdim is what it is. I don't hear it as a A7, so I'll just take that as a reharmonization.

[JakeAcci]

I would dig seeing someone else also do the same...

Basically what I did above although no verbal analysis. Mostly just playing simply off of guide tone lines.

[JonR]

Wow... we're talking about Night and Day... it's a very simple jazz standard... not complicated... not meant to be... very singable straight ahead melody and basic changes used in very standard jazz style...

I agree. I was just playing idle games...

Harmonization is like a drug... You need a bigger and bigger hit to get the same effect... you can't leave a simple tune alone... "man, I just gotta put some extensions in there... ooh, so good ..and now substitute this sucker... oh yeah, listen to that...".

eventually you forget why you started, you lose your job, lose your mind...

you got to be strong! I tried to give up (clean my head out with some folk and rock), and I've been straight for a while, but somehow it's too easy to relapse...

On a different note... Jon, your rant was fun.

thanks

I'll make a video of playing analysis... if really needed. I would dig seeing someone else also do the same... there are basically only a few approaches generally used ...Reg

I'll look forward to it .

[Jazzpunk]

BTW, if anyone wants a good (if lengthy) discussion on N&D from some real jazz heads, try this:
Night and Day - Jazz Bulletin Board
(they get into analysis about post #26; still no tips on improv scales tho...)

Jon, have you taken the time to check out any of the players in this thread? I'd suggest listening to JensL, Reg and twodogs09 for starters.

We've got some 'real jazz heads' here already.

[Reg]

Hey Thanks...I think. real jazz head. I've definitely been called much worse...
But if we're only looking for scales, or note collections for improve sources... that's extremely simple.
I'll list choices in somewhat closest choices in relationship to analysis and tonal implications... there are obviously many choices and most use a few all the time. Very rarely does one pitch collect cover.
That's too easy... I'm not doing all the work...I'll list how to find...

1) all the -7b5 chords found from different scales etc...
examples; Maj. Scale... VII-7b5 or 7th degree...locrian
MM... 6th and 7th degrees... similocrian or Altered
H. Min...2nd degree, Locrian #6
H. Maj... 2nd degree. Dorian b5
Dim. half whole... or any synthetic or symmetrical scale...

2) pull from implied related V7 chord... ex. D Dorian naturally implies G Mixolydian.... there are implied V7's for all the rest of -7b5 choices. And you can mix and match.

3) pull from implied Sub.V chord... starts to get a little more complicated... but still just a numbers game.

4) you can continue to pull from other relationships...-7b5 chords are functionally related to V9 chords. D-7b5 and Bb9. Min7b5's are very close to #9 chords, D-7b5 and D7#9.... now we're really starting to open doors... your ears will begin to hear... there are a lot of relationships...

5) use Modal style of functional relationships...

6) pull from any Chord pattern... which makes use of -7b5 chord. ( think of standards which use that chord.... that series of chords is a "chord Pattern").
We could go on... but why...

Anyway approach each chord in same manor... and you'll have a mechanical method of selecting pitch collections.. Just because we say Scale... doesn't imply play that way... the word scale is simply an easy method of implying all the chord tones.

Now you need to make choices... use different methods or different harmonic concepts to help create application principles... or use trial and error...

Or you can embellish melodies or melodic ideas, pulling from your choices of harmony.... or use random chromatic notes that you like or have heard others use... or trial and error.

You'll be amazed how well different pitch collections work or sound when used together in organized or recognizable applications.

OK enough BS... off to gig. Reg

[Jazzpunk]

Hey Thanks...I think. real jazz head. I've definitely been called much worse...

Ha!

[JonR]

Jon, have you taken the time to check out any of the players in this thread? I'd suggest listening to JensL, Reg and twodogs09 for starters.

We've got some 'real jazz heads' here already.

No doubt! I guess I was thinking of people who like discussing theory in real depth (yes, even more than here!), rather than great players.