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there are no questionable notes in Melodic minor which is a great choice for a IVmin chord that is leading to V or I. I agree that what you call it is hugely unimportant.
Dorian has no avoid notes but also no tension and is boring. You shouldn't be using scales to improvise with anyway but that's a whole other topic...
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04-19-2011 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Got it. My bad. I misunderstood what was meant by the word "function". I retract all previous statements.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
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Originally Posted by LucreDom
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Last edited by jzucker; 04-20-2011 at 09:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Originally Posted by jzucker
I'm cool with calling it a ivm7 for ease of notation or calling changes or whatever, but I wouldn't point to it as an example of typical function. Some of these examples you've given have been typical modulations or typical subs, but saying, "See, this is how a IV functions" is another deal.
You can find a lot of examples of a vm7 (with respect to the original key), but I wouldn't point to that and say, "See, V7's function as subdominants".
I don't think that this discrepancy with the use of the word "function" has anything to do with being able to play over changes. You play far better than I do. You just kind of jumped into the conversation and took it in a different direction.
Originally Posted by jzucker
C A7 Dm7 G7 is most easily memorized and played as I VI7 ii7 V7, but at some point, as a teacher, I have to explain to my students the justification for that non-diatonic A7 chord and it's true function. I may include in this discussion the fact that VI7 is so ubiquitous in jazz that we don't really think of it as being a big modulation, but it's ridiculous to never introduce the concept of secondary dominants to a student just because they can be described with diatonic roman numerals. I also don't think it makes sense to say that because a non-diatonic IV chord is often used as a sub or modulation that we now consider it to be a basic function of the chord.
I fully understand that usage of the major VI7 is ancient in jazz terms. However, that doesn't make a basic discussion about its function as the V7 of of ii ridiculous or imply that the person who is discussing it is "locked into baroque thinking". I wouldn't write it that way on a chart, but we weren't talking about charts. We were talking about function. If it's a sub, in reality it's functioning as another chord. This was the original discussion.
Honestly, I don't care that much about these theory debates. I made a casual comment and wasn't looking for any kind of fight. I was thinking of Fep's (non-jazz) example and how the minor four functions like a four. If you want to say that a IV doesn't often function that way in jazz, I wouldn't argue. I just think subs and modulations are another discussion entirely. I never wanted to get into to a debate on whether subs and modulations are true examples of a chord's inherent function with respect to the previous key's scale degree.
Anyway, this discussion has very little importance in the context of actually playing music. I'm done with it. I wish you no ill will. Good luck and God bless.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-20-2011 at 10:38 AM.
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[quote=jzucker;139072]here's a couple clips I did to demo it:
Outstanding! The first way it came to my mind to group these notes is as a D Lydian type scale with both 3rds and both 4ths so, how about over Dma7 type chords? The whole "scale" Can be approximated by either D Ionian, D Lydian, D Jazz Minor, or D Lydian Diminished (Lydian b3). This is sort of why I think Lydian Diminished (or a Harmonic Major mode of choice) can be a melodic scale choice not at all unlike the Jazz Minor, it groups some odd intervals in a way that's fairly smooth and will often "beg" to have a note added from one of the other scales in a way that tells my ear just where to put it. Many Thanks and I will check into your websiteLast edited by LucreDom; 04-21-2011 at 02:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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So,
So far we have 2 example of IV function (cadential)....
Lady Bird/Yardbird
In My Life/space oddity
And one one example of ii function
Green dolphin street (end of first A)
I suspect the minor Four has other functions as well, perhaps as a vi or iii chord in a quick "modulation" hmmm, any thoughts?
And yes, thanks for the lessons Jack.... killin.Last edited by timscarey; 04-21-2011 at 03:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
Last edited by czardas; 04-21-2011 at 03:50 AM.
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there's a million tunes that go IV to iv.
Cherokee, just friends, polkadots and moonbeams...
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Originally Posted by timscarey
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
A final point I'd like to raise on the minor IV thing is that Phrygian has a minor 7 on it's IV. In it's most widely exploited element, the "Spanish" (derived in part from Arabic), Phrygian is commonly or even generally treated as a major tonality with minor interspersed and played against it. And I believe the IV is always minor (what an odd place to find the Harmonic Minor, with it's desperately needed "leading tone" pointing back at itself. Of course it is a "dual tonic" mode, with the "money chords" flamenco progression Im bVII bVI V7 {"walk don't run"} starting from here). I love Phrygian, It's a place where the modal interchange (is that the term?) rubber really meets the road. Something I want to learn more about. BTW I truly do apologize in advance for all this parenthetical emphasis I've abused. I'm gonna shut up and play my guitar some more!Last edited by LucreDom; 04-21-2011 at 01:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Dm - G - CMaj repeat Fm - E7 - Eb7 - AbMaj - G7 - Cmaj
Or something to that effect, where the Fm is first heard in the key of C but is functioning as a 6 or 3 somewhere else.... dig?
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Originally Posted by timscarey
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Originally Posted by jzucker
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Originally Posted by timscarey
I've played these chords a zillion times. They are just common turnaround subs used in a million tunes since 1945.
I'm not sure what you mean "I knew what you meant". I was responding to your posting. Nothing more. And besides, Bbm7 would just be a tritone sub also. If you change them all to tritone subs you end up with | Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 | C |
or
| Fm7 Bbm7 Ebm7 Abm7 | C |
In that latter case, the Fm7 is not functioning as a 4 chord because it's part of the turnaround.Last edited by jzucker; 04-21-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
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And besides, Bbm7 would just be a tritone sub also. If you change them all to tritone subs you end up with | Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 | C |
or
| Fm7 Bbm7 Ebm7 Abm7 | C |
In that latter case, the Fm7 is not functioning as a 4 chord because it's part of the turnaround.
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Also, if the IVm7 is occuring at the beginning of a phrase it's unlikely to be the VI chord in terms of harmonic rhythm
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Originally Posted by jzucker
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I'm looking for a tune that modulates down a Major 3rd by way of a 6251. This would make the 6 chord sound as the 4 minor in the origonal key (for at least a few beats before the modulation becomes clear) a la green dolphin street, only to Ab not Eb.
Or the same thing only 36251 to Db.
The reason is, these "minor four" chords would have different "choice" scales related to their function in the new key.... maybe. I dunno, that's why I'm asking the question
Gibson ES-125 from 1958
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