Does analyzing miss the point in music?

[musicalbodger]

Not to sashay into the middle of your donnybrook, both plurals of forum are correct (it's now a word in English, eh), but "the English plural forums is preferred to the Latin plural fora in normal English usage."

Big Daddy, if you want to use Wiktionary as your reference, go ahead, but I think that the OED is a better bet. Yes, of course forums is common usage, brought about by those too lazy, or ill educated, to use the correct term. Similarly stadiums instead of the perfectly good and correct stadia. Anyway, I really don't give a shit, I was only pulling dear Kevin's giant intellectual tail.

[Gramps]

Well, I guess that will teach you not to sashay.

Tempers are hot today. Time for a deep breath and some good music. (maybe a beverage)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Now you've got me wondering. I'd be happy to use fora, but I already look and sound like a nerd -- no need to gild the lily! Wiktionary was just the first link I found. I can't see to get into the OED without an account, but the Online Oxford Dictionary similarly states:

The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city.

But don't let me stop you from enjoying your facetiae.

[musicalbodger]

Now you've got me wondering. I'd be happy to use fora, but I already look and sound like a nerd -- no need to gild the lily! Wiktionary was just the first link I found. I can't see to get into the OED without an account, but the Online Oxford Dictionary similarly states:

The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city.

But don't let me stop you from enjoying your facetiae.

You can sashay in any time BD, always enjoy your little jousts. To be honest, very few people use fora now, but my point about the lazy and ill educated dumbing down the language and removing the glorious, colourful idiosynchrosies that make English such a joy, still stands. Octopuses, anyone?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I do prefer to rock the English language, old-school:



Ahem. Anyhowdy, just this morning Spell Check told me to use "canceled" instead of "cancelled". A single L just looks wrong to me. Luckily, Spell Check has an "add to dictionary" button!

[ksjazzguitar]

...this forum (the correct plural is fora, by the way — it comes from Latin) ...

As pointed out already, in English "forums" is perfectly acceptable and is the preferred plural in the American Heritage Dictionary, my standard for American English, plus I don't own an OED (a Christmas hint for whoever gets my name in the secret Santa. ) Only snobs insist that it must be "fora." But hey, why let the facts get it the way of a cheap shot? Right?

And don't accuse me of lying and cheating. Very cheap and childish. Also a very grave offense, very cowardly and very easy to do from a distance. You dig yourself deeper with every post you make.

And once again, you dodge every argument I make.

Unfortunately that seems to be the common dialectical technique in internet discussions:

• Make claims based on unfounded assumptions and misstatements of facts.
• Combine them with faulty logic to come to erroneous conclusions.
• When someone points out your unfounded assumptions and misstatements of facts and faulty logic to come to erroneous conclusions, simply move onto other unfounded assumptions and misstatements of facts and faulty logic to come to erroneous conclusions.
• If someone keeps pointing out that keep avoiding defending your own statements, call them pedantic and arrogant and start crying like a victim.
• In the end, be sure not to defend any of your assumptions of logic - it's easier just to change the subject. And never, ever try to take on your opponents arguments, it's easier just to go around them.

I guess it's one of the hazards of trying to have a debate on the internet.

All I'm asking is for you to not make things up. If you make a mistake, just admit it - be a grown-up. If you can't defend your argument with intellectual integrity, then maybe it's not worth defending. If you don't know the "rules" of dialectic and rhetoric, then maybe you should take a back seat to people who do.

If you can't do those things, then yes, I have an irrational urge to put you in your place (my therapist and I are working on it. ) Prove that I'm wrong - I'll gladly admit it - but you won't be able to do it with bad assumptions and specious logic and changing the subject every time you get cornered.

This has nothing to do with your value as a human being. You may be an awesome musician. But I don't think you know how to construct an argument or participate in dialectic with intellectual integrity. If you want the intellectual equivalent of a street fight, then yes, I will look down on you. When you want to have an adult debate, let me know.

Peace,
Kevin

[JohnRoss]

Big Daddy, if you want to use Wiktionary as your reference, go ahead, but I think that the OED is a better bet.

I rather feel that this is a bluff, and probably total wank. My Shorter OED (that's the half-sized, 3000-page version, between the pocket 'concise' and the full-blown thing, and admittedly elderly, 1983, but I haven't found it wrong in all these years, ever) does not mention fora as an option for the plural, Wikipedia calls it an 'irregular' form of the plural, and I have never heard anyone whose opinion I respected use 'fora' as the plural of forums.

So I think you have made this OED reference up.

Now, I know you aren't daft, and that you are perfectly capable of formulating good arguments without inventing fictional dictionary entries. And I, at least, would have more respect for your arguments if you refrained from such inventions. So why don't you just stick to reality?

[Flyin' Brian]

Wow! I think I clicked on the wrong bookmark and ended up in The Gear Page, where it's very common to walk around beating one's chest instead of coming to a gentlemanly agreement to disagree. I didn't expect it here.

[JohnRoss]

The Gear Page, where it's very common to walk around beating one's chest

Aw, come on, this isn't chest-beating. Chest-beating is something you do when there are females in dispute (which is nothing at all to do with the thread about whether women can play jazz, I hasten to add). Anyway, we still have time to come to a gentlemanly agreement, and I expect we will. And if we don't, the world will still keep turning.

[musicalbodger]

definition of forum from Oxford Dictionaries Online

[ksjazzguitar]

...My Shorter OED ... does not mention fora as an option for the plural, ...

Good catch John, I'd just taken his word for it (when will I learn. ) I found the same thing on the OED online on the Universities web site.

I'm sure there are people who use "fora" - it follows the same pattern of nouns coming from the 2nd declension neuter nouns in Latin: datum/data, candelabrum/candelabra, agendum/agenda. But those words have been so anglicized over the years that the sound awkward and snooty if you try to declinate them as they would be in latin.

It's like in music when someone insists that the plural of "opera" is "opere." True, if we were speaking Italian. But in English it just gets you a wedgy and gets your lunch money stolen, Poindexter.

definition of forum from Oxford Dictionaries Online

Perhaps, but that's the ODO (Oxford Dictionary Online), not the OED (Oxford English Dictionary.) I'm not sure what the relationship is. The fact that the ODO makes no mention of the OED is conspicuous - if they had any relationship to the most trusted dictionary in the English language you figure they'd at least mention it (I can't find on their site where they mention it.) I assume they just chose that name to piggyback on the fame and respect of the OED.

And it's listed as a secondary plural anyway, not the primary. And you apparently missed the note at the end:

The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city.

And I'm not saying that "fora" is not a legitimate plural (I think you could build an argument for it), I was just saying it's not the only or even the preferred one.

But this is exactly what I was talking about. You make a faulty assumption and misstate some facts. When you're called on that, then you try and defend it with more bad info (your citation said the exact opposite of what you thought it did, if you read is properly), rather than admit you simply misspoke. Is this where you start calling me arrogant and pedantic again?

Peace,
Kevin

[Dad3353]

Just to, fora change, split a quick infinitive...
(Sorry, another 'red herring'. Backs quietly out of the room, eyes lowered...)

[musicalbodger]

FAQs : Oxford Dictionaries OnlineWhich resources were used to create Oxford Dictionaries Online?

Below is a list of the resources on which the content of Oxford Dictionaries Online is based. Many specially commissioned materials and articles are also included on the site, but not listed below. The premium site also includes 1.9 million sentences selected from the Oxford English Corpus.
World version of the site
Main dictionary and thesaurus content:
Oxford Dictionary of English (Revised Second Edition)
Oxford Thesaurus of English (Third Edition)

Writing skills:
Oxford A-Z of Better Spelling (Second Edition)

Got any more anal points to make?
Oxford A-Z of Usage
Oxford A-Z of Grammar and Punctuation (Second Edition)

For writers and editors:
New Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors
Pocket Fowler’s Modern English Usage (Second Edition)
New Hart’s Rules
New Oxford Dictionary for Scientific Writers and Editors

Any more anal points you wish to make?

[ksjazzguitar]

Just to, fora change, split a quick infinitive...
(Sorry, another 'red herring'. Backs quietly out of the room, eyes lowered...)

Cute.

FAQs : Oxford Dictionaries OnlineWhich resources were used to create Oxford Dictionaries Online?

Below is a list of the resources on which the content of Oxford Dictionaries Online is based. ...

That really just looks like an advertisement for most of their print products. And it still doesn't make it the OED. And you still ignore the note at the bottom of the entry that says you're wrong! Even your own source is on our side but you're too chauvinistic to see it.

Any more anal points you wish to make?

Insisting on the truth is not "being anal." Most people would say insisting on archaic Latin spellings to be "anal."

Really, to me this isn't an argument about grammar but about being intellectually dishonest.

But hey, at least you've expanded your vocabulary in the name calling phase to include "anal" instead of just "arrogant" and "pedantic." I guess that's progress.

But you are a very, very silly fish and I will let you have no more of my precious time. I'm done with this thread.

Peace,
Kevin

[musicalbodger]

Yes, of course forums is common usage, brought about by those too lazy, or ill educated, to use the correct term. Similarly stadiums instead of the perfectly good and correct stadia.

Sorry to quote myself — #78, if you had bothered to take in what I've been saying.

I apologise I used the wrong quote above, it should have been this one' #81,

To be honest, very few people use fora now, but my point about the lazy and ill educated dumbing down the language and removing the glorious, colourful idiosynchrosies that make English such a joy, still stands. Octopuses, anyone?

[Flyin' Brian]

Aw, come on, this isn't chest-beating. Chest-beating is something you do when there are females in dispute (which is nothing at all to do with the thread about whether women can play jazz, I hasten to add). Anyway, we still have time to come to a gentlemanly agreement, and I expect we will. And if we don't, the world will still keep turning.

Indeed it will.

[ksjazzguitar]

...Anyway, we still have time to come to a gentlemanly agreement, ...

Or at least a gentlemanly disagreement.

Peace,
Kevin

[Shadow of the Sun]

To be honest, very few people use fora now, but my point about the lazy and ill educated dumbing down the language and removing the glorious, colourful idiosynchrosies that make English such a joy, still stands. Octopuses, anyone?

False argument. Languages, being by nature shaped by societies, evolve as societies do. Claiming that it's just 'dumbing down' is ignoring very basic linguistic fact: the way people speak changes over time.

We are not speaking Latin. Latin is dead. Insisting on using it is annoying and often obfuscating.

[musicalbodger]

False argument. Languages, being by nature shaped by societies, evolve as societies do. Claiming that it's just 'dumbing down' is ignoring very basic linguistic fact: the way people speak changes over time.

We are not speaking Latin. Latin is dead. Insisting on using it is annoying and often obfuscating.

If you had read the thread fully you would see that two posts above that, I stated, "Anyway, I really don't give a shit, I was only pulling dear Kevin's giant intellectual tail."

So don't you start getting your little knickers in a twist over this silly issue.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I can manage that.

[Solo Flight]

So don't you start getting your little knickers in a twist over this silly issue.

Non torsii subligarium!

[musicalbodger]

That really just looks like an advertisement for most of their print products. And it still doesn't make it the OED. And you still ignore the note at the bottom of the entry that says you're wrong! Even your own source is on our side but you're too chauvinistic to see it.

Kevin for someone who is so pedantic, you really should choose your language more carefully. Regarding your emphasised point, I am not wrong. Please tell me how the ODO quote below differs in any marked degree from these two quotes of mine, "Yes, of course forums is common usage..." & "To be honest, very few people use fora now..."

The quote from the ODO to which you refer is:
"Spelling help
The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city." (my emphasis)

Whilst Merrian Websters Collegiate Dictionary quotes both forums and fora as acceptable plural versions of the word, with forums being the more common form.

Regarding the point about the ODO not being the OED. You are splitting hairs. The definitions are the same in both (check the OED at your local library if you can't afford the subscription). The only difference is that the OED does not give an example of the plural form of the word.

As for my quoting the OED, I apologise to all, I was not aware there was a difference as both are published by the Oxford University Press. In essence there is no difference except that the OED also includes the earliest historical references to each new usage of a word.

Insisting on the truth is not "being anal." Most people would say insisting on archaic Latin spellings to be "anal."

As you accused me of not reading your posts, nor understanding them, I refer you to my answer to Shadow of the Sun a couple of posts above this one.

Really, to me this isn't an argument about grammar but about being intellectually dishonest.

I think the quotes above show you to have been hoist by your own petard, although you will no doubt call me names again for pointing this out to you.

But hey, at least you've expanded your vocabulary in the name calling phase to include "anal" instead of just "arrogant" and "pedantic." I guess that's progress.

But you are a very, very silly fish and I will let you have no more of my precious time. I'm done with this thread.

The patronising and childish name calling which you appear to enjoy (I seem to remember the last ones you called me were liar and cheat) just show you've been around the childish too long and really should get out and meet with a few adults. It may help make you less of a pain in the arse.

[musicalbodger]

I can't see to get into the OED without an account

I don't know what the library system is like where you are Big Daddy but over here we can access the OED, Encyclopedia Brittanica, Oxford Dictionary of Biographies, etc. through the local government libraries website. That is if you're a member of the library.

Solo Flight

Non torsii subligarium!

Shadow

I can manage that.

No problem.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I don't know what the library system is like where you are Big Daddy but over here we can access the OED, Encyclopedia Brittanica, Oxford Dictionary of Biographies, etc. through the local government libraries website. That is if you're a member of the library.

*Sigh*

Waiter, the bill, please.

[Dad3353]

*Sigh*

Waiter, the bill, please.

Certainly sir, here's The Bill...