Is it true guitar should be read up an octave?

[mr. beaumont]

For some reason, I always explain it the other way--guitar music SOUNDS an octave lower than written, and that seems to make sense to people.

[Gitarguy]

I think a Note Is a Note is a Note . If you play a C on a piano and the same note on a guitar, then there
is nothing to transpose, It is the exact same note. when I go to my G note on the 6 string It will always
be on the 6th string 3rd fret, now why cant I have that same logic applied to the Treble Cleff.
What if In the English Language We could write the same word with letters that were 8 letters apart
wouldn't that be rediculas.

It seems that you have misunderstood what's been said.

The guitar is a "transposing instrument".

We play an octave lower than written.

We do not play the actual pitches indicated, like a piano does. When we read music written for guitar, that's already taken into account. When we read music written for piano, it's something we need to know...whether we do anything different or not.

This was done in order to keep the music on just one staff, otherwise; we would be reading a grand staff just like piano players do. Our low E string is actually one ledger line below the bass clef!

[jster]

Yes. Thinking about this from a middle C perspective:

1. when playing guitar music, play "as is". that is, middle C as written is played on the 5th string, 3rd fret (or the equivalent - 6th string 8th fret).

2. when playing fake books or vocal music in concert key etc, middle C should be played on the 2nd string first fret, or equivalent)

But are fake book melodies always written at concert pitch?

And the reason I ask that question is this second question:

Isn't male (tenor) voice written an octave off like guitar music?

[Gitarguy]

Isn't male (tenor) voice written an octave off like guitar music?

Yes, usually. If it's in treble clef then it is transposed. If it's in bass clef, then it's not.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

For classical guitar, wouldn't this be the third fret A string standard tuning ? For fake books, what you said is the common reading. Am I wrong ?

On a guitar "middle C" (261.6Hz) is on the first fret of the B string.

3rd fret C on 5th string (A) is one octave below : 130.81 hz

[Patrick2]

When reading, I always try to read by finding the highest note of the piece . . . . and then the lowest note of the piece. Then, locate each on my fret board. That will then dictate the position position/area within which I will play each of the notes in the piece. The octaves will then take care of themselves.

I originally started out using Rubanks Elementary Method is another nice book for reading studies. It's really a clarinet oriented book and pretty basic stuff. But, it's still relavent. Later, I switched to Dr. Roger Filiberto's Mel Bay book "Guitar Position Studies". Not sure which I like more . . . because I don't do too much reading anymore.

Classical guitar is a whole 'nother world. Filiberto's positional approach probably lends itself more to classical guitar reading.

[jtnthestargate]

Thx For the clarification , the main problem I see is I would like to associate a note on the treble clef with the exact note
on the keyboard and guitar without confusing myself . I am A long time guitarist but the keys are new to me and I am
trying to learn to read notation at the same time. Can everyone on this thread agree about where the middle C is on The Guitar & Keys, That would Be A Relief.

[randalljazz]

Thx For the clarification , the main problem I see is I would like to associate a note on the treble clef with the exact note
on the keyboard and guitar without confusing myself . I am A long time guitarist but the keys are new to me and I am
trying to learn to read notation at the same time. Can everyone on this thread agree about where the middle C is on The Guitar & Keys, That would Be A Relief.

not a matter of agreement--it is a matter of fact:

middle C on the keyboard is the one "in the middle", and on piano notation (grand staff), it is notated on the first line below the treble clef and the first line above the bass clef.

that same pitch on the guitar is on the first fret of the 2nd string, and is notated on the 3rd space (from the bottom), in typical guitar treble clef (8ve).

[randalljazz]

the guitar clef (notice the little 8 at the bottom):

[Gitarguy]

the guitar clef (notice the little 8 at the bottom):

Yes, exactly. However, you will usually not see the little "8" there, it must be understood. Just like mentioned above with choral music for tenors.

Don't overthink this, guys. It's not a difficult concept.

[randalljazz]

Yes, exactly. However, you will usually not see the little "8" there, it must be understood. Just like mentioned above with choral music for tenors.

Don't overthink this, guys. It's not a difficult concept.

yes.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Later, I switched to Dr. Roger Filiberto's Mel Bay book "Guitar Position Studies". Not sure which I like more . . . because I don't do too much reading anymore.

I go by the "old school" philsophy as well.."if it's hard to read, then it should be hard to play..until you play it so much it's burned into the old melon"..

Dan (don't get around much anymore)..and that is a song title btw

[fumblefingers]

yes, if you will look at my post above I think that explains it.

fake books were not written by Carcassi or Sor (or Mel Bay, William Leavitt, etc., etc.)

I think that Johnny Smith tried to deal with this issue in his method, although I'm not sure why. needless to say it didn't catch on.


I don't remember that about tenor... its been a long time.

[Gitarguy]

I go by the "old school" philsophy as well.."if it's hard to read, then it should be hard to play..until you play it so much it's burned into the old melon"..

Don't let black ink scare you. Usually, the more black ink there is, the more something repeats. This is where repeating patterns can be really helpful.

[cosmic gumbo]

Don't let black ink scare you. Usually, the more black ink there is, the more something repeats. This is where repeating patterns can be really helpful.

I'm missing the logic of this one. The more repeats there are, the less is written on a chart...

[Gitarguy]

I'm missing the logic of this one. The more repeats there are, the less is written on a chart...

Yes, you did miss it. ;-)

I wasn't talking about repeat signs. I meant when you see the whole page filled up with tons of short notes.

[Broyale]

When reading, I always try to read by finding the highest note of the piece . . . . and then the lowest note of the piece. Then, locate each on my fret board. That will then dictate the position position/area within which I will play each of the notes in the piece. The octaves will then take care of themselves.

All you need to know, really.
My teacher tried explaining this "guitar as transposing instrument" nonsense to me, all he needed to say was what's in bold.

[randalljazz]

All you need to know, really.
My teacher tried explaining this "guitar as transposing instrument" nonsense to me, all he needed to say was what's in bold.

that you couldn't be bothered to understand the concept or its importance does not make it "nonsense"...but your statement does not reflect favorably on your teacher...

[jtnthestargate]

Im not Trying to be argumentative , I am trying hard to get this but,
I know that middle C is where it is because piano/keys are not transposing.
Now on guitar these last post are saying Its on the C note on the guitars B string , and I now understand where your coming from. If this is 8v concept is "just understood" what are the exceptions for this this rule or does it only apply
to specific books or publishers . another words how do I know when to do the transposition if wether or not 8v is in the time signature I apply this "Fact" . or am I back to trial and error .


I Appreciate your feedback
Thx

[jasonc]

The problem is that it never is explained WHY its important to beginners that want to learn how to read the treble clef.
Most books I've come across that include this tidbit of info never bother to explain it.
"The guitar is a transposing instrument, we read it higher/lower than written on the treble clef...."
"Why? That don't make sense..."
"Bllluuuuuhhhh....have you practiced your scales?"
NONSENSE.
Thats why I defer to Patrick's quote. Gets a motivated student learning how to read quickly.

It makes perfect sense. If we notated music where the guitar actually sounds we would have to read a grand staff. So we would have to read both treble and bass clefs. Transposing up an octave keeps you from needing both staves and both clefs. Johnny Smith was trying to get people to go to the grand staff. Just as an aside, when I have to read bass clef I just imagine it's treble clef and I read it up a third.

[fumblefingers]

Im not Trying to be argumentative , I am trying hard to get this but,
I know that middle C is where it is because piano/keys are not transposing.
Now on guitar these last post are saying Its on the C note on the guitars B string , and I now understand where your coming from. If this is 8v concept is "just understood" what are the exceptions for this this rule or does it only apply
to specific books or publishers . another words how do I know when to do the transposition if wether or not 8v is in the time signature I apply this "Fact" . or am I back to trial and error .


I Appreciate your feedback
Thx

if its "guitar music" don't play up an octave. if its not guitar music (like a fake book) then do play up an octave. generally speaking, people who write for the guitar know about this and write for the correct sound they are looking for.

[s11141827]

There's a non transposing version of the traditional Guitar called the Soprano Guitar, which is in the same register as a Mandolin.

[joelf]

I think that Johnny Smith tried to deal with this issue in his method, although I'm not sure why. needless to say it didn't catch on.

He used treble and bass clefs, didn't he? I'm surprised it didn't catch on. given the instrument's range. I'm sure he wasn't the only one using that approach, as it makes such good sense.

I think it's good practice to read through guitar literature both as notated for us and 8va. Makes it that much easier to read in concert when you have to...

[Jimmy blue note]

Music notated specifically for guitar has already accounted for the guitar sounding an octave lower than written.

Music for sounds at pitch instruments should be played on guitar with the awareness of the difference but in whichever octave sounds good for the situation.
We have to balance the importance of playing the exact original voicing versus the individual best resonance for the guitar.
The skill to play or read up or down an octave is useful to have.

+1, you've got it bako. Guitar is the range of the cello, and cello players play music that scans well for that instrument but it's not even a clef that is easily transposable to the rest of the world.
Music written for guitar is a convention of convenience.

And hey, 90% of the people who play guitar consider written music a skill belonging to a realm bordering on esoteria. 8va or 8vb? Are you REALLY trying to damage my brain?

[Jimmy blue note]

He used treble and bass clefs, didn't he? I'm surprised it didn't catch on. given the instrument's range. I'm sure he wasn't the only one using that approach, as it makes such good sense.

I think it's good practice to read through guitar literature both as notated for us and 8va. Makes it that much easier to read in concert when you have to...

George Van Eps saw the guitar more closely related to the piano. Johnny Smith too, and his books follow that convention. It's written like a piano score, continuous bass to treble on one 2 clef score. It's brilliantly consistent with the bass role of the lower strings and the treble range of the upper strings fitting very nicely in a treble clef you can easily see relationships in.

It'd make more sense if we were simply taught this way from the beginning, but the present system is good for the bandstand. There are tenor real books, there are alto real books, the C real book might be considered the guitar book.
As a note: I don't know of any self respecting professional alto or tenor player who can't make instant transpositions. Good and handy skill to have; even more handy, the ability to transpose by ear: identifying the tonic and reading by ear with relative pitch transposition.