Seven string tuning options?

[porter.fitch]

I'm the new owner of a seven string guitar, and I'm buckling down and getting to grips on it. I'm primarily a solo guitarist who often plays duos with a singer. I wanted to see what thoughts people with more experience than myself had about the relative merits of the various available tunings. Here's what I'm looking at:

AEADGBE: This is where I started off assuming I'd want to be. This tuning definitely has the easiest learning curve, and I was pretty much immediately able to start playing chords up the neck with lower roots. But I found that more active bass lines felt awkward when playing with the root on the 7th string due to the 5th between A and E, which led me to explore...

BEADGBE: Seven string "standard," according to the rock guys. This reverses the pros and cons of the above. The bass register leads to more comfortable lines, but the connection to my existing language is not as strong. It has the added con that the notes available from the grand barre, when playing with the root on the 7th string, are less useful than low A tuning. This may be resolved by...

BEADF#BE: The Lenny Breau tuning down a 4th. I've messed around with this tuning a little bit, but found it pretty confusing. It would ultimately require either treating the guitar as a G transposing instrument (i.e., my C is concert G,) or reorienting to EADF#BE as my standard tuning. Other options include...

ADGDGCE: Charlie Hunter's tuning up a whole step. I have yet to explore this one. Another transposing tuning, I gather. The intervals are as EADADGB, which is a really weird version of standard. Pros include bass strings in 4ths and a slightly expanded range. Anyone proficient in the Hunter tuning, please chime in.

BEADGCF: All 4ths. If I'm thinking about changing tunings, why not go for perfect consistency? Sadly, the grand barre problems of BEADGBE apply here, but moreso.

Anyone with experience in one or more of these tunings, your feedback is appreciated! I may be overthinking this, but you only get one chance to start learning an instrument.

[nyc chaz]

The Pizzarelli's tune to a low A and i think this is the easiest way to learn to play 7 string jazz guitar.I could see tuning to B if you are doing a lot of comping.Obviously the only way to know is to try it for yourself and see what you like best.

[porter.fitch]

Low A does seem like the lowest barrier to entry by quite a bit. Part of the problem is that I'm not fluent with any of these tunings yet, so I don't know what I don't know. So it's possible that there are upsides to some of these tunings that I'm not seeing out of a lack of experience. It's crazy how adding one string can boggle 20 years of experience...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Hi and welcome! I’ve been playing 7s for about 35 years and switched completely in about ‘95. I play solo & ensemble gigs and accompany vocalists on archtop and flat top, and I play the blues on solid body 7s. I use standard tuning over low A for everything, including slide.

Walking bass with low A is not a problem once you learn to use your pinkie to fret the 3, 4, and #4 on the 7th. Whether you play the 4 or #4 on 6 or 7 depends on what your other fingers need to do.

The downside of a low B for me is the loss of 2 very useful low notes. I also prefer the A because it lets me jump a fifth or an octave for both walking bass and inversions with the least left hand shuffling.

I don’t like any open tuning on my 7s, although I’m not averse to open tunings in general. My National tricone (the only standard 6 string I kept) is usually DGDGBD. But no open tuning I’ve ever tried on a 7 sounded right to me.

[porter.fitch]

Hi and welcome! I’ve been playing 7s for about 35 years and switched completely in about ‘95. I play solo & ensemble gigs and accompany vocalists on archtop and flat top, and I play the blues on solid body 7s. I use standard tuning over low A for everything, including slide.

Walking bass with low A is not a problem once you learn to use your pinkie to fret the 3, 4, and #4 on the 7th. Whether you play the 4 or #4 on 6 or 7 depends on what your other fingers need to do.

The downside of a low B for me is the loss of 2 very useful low notes. I also prefer the A because it lets me jump a fifth or an octave for both walking bass and inversions with the least left hand shuffling.

I don’t like any open tuning on my 7s, although I’m not averse to open tunings in general. My National tricone (the only standard 6 string I kept) is usually DGDGBD. But no open tuning I’ve ever tried on a 7 sounded right to me.

Another vote for low A-- Thanks for your input! I'm glad to hear that the bass challenges are surmountable. One benefit I forgot to mention above of low A tuning is not just the increased range, but the increased range in a given closed position (which is the main reason I wanted to play a seven string in the first place!)
And I agree about open tunings-- I've written for them a lot in the past, but at this point I'm trying to play everything in one maximally flexible tuning.
I'm leaning even more strongly towards AEADGBE, although I'd still love to hear from anyone using other tunings on a 7.

[nyc chaz]

Low A does seem like the lowest barrier to entry by quite a bit. Part of the problem is that I'm not fluent with any of these tunings yet, so I don't know what I don't know. So it's possible that there are upsides to some of these tunings that I'm not seeing out of a lack of experience. It's crazy how adding one string can boggle 20 years of experience...

I know what you mean,adding one string can throw off your whole feel at first.You might want to get the Bucky Pizzarelli collection sold by Mel Bay.Most of the arrangements are for 7 string guitar and can serve as as a template and inspiration for your own ideas on tunes.Good luck.

[porter.fitch]

I know what you mean,adding one string can throw off your whole feel at first.You might want to get the Bucky Pizzarelli collection sold by Mel Bay.Most of the arrangements are for 7 string guitar and can serve as as a template and inspiration for your own ideas on tunes.Good luck.

That's a good idea. I've also been thinking about arranging a couple of short fragments in a handful of tunings to have some concrete experience with how they all lay out.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I know what you mean,adding one string can throw off your whole feel at first.

Ain’t that the truth!! When I got my first 7, I assumed I could just ignore the 7th string until I learned to use it. So I took it on a gig after I'd had it for about a week. I’d already been playing for over 30 years - how hard could it be?

That was one of the worst nights of my life. I would find myself one string off with one hand or the other, so I had to dumb down everything I played to avoid really embarrassing myself and my band mates. Some months later, my band played the early set at Chris’s Jazz Cafe on a night when Jimmy Bruno was the main attraction. No, we didn’t open for him - we were just the happy hour/ early bird act. He was playing a 7 at the time, so I asked him for advice.

He told me that if I wanted to become a good 7 string player, I should sell all my 6 string guitars. He said that as long as you can fall back on 6 whenever you find 7 difficult, you’ll never master 7. What he said made sense to me, so I stopped playing 6s immediately and sold the last one about 25 years ago. Interestingly enough, he gave up on 7 while I was giving up 6s.

[deacon Mark]

I had a Barker 7 string made for me by Bill in 1985. The only real option was the low A. I am not into open tunings and wanted the walking bass line. In the end I sold the guitar around 1992 and would never go back to a 7 string. I have enough to do with 6 strings. The biggest problem I have with the string is the way it sounds, as notes do no pop out like they do on the low E. I wanted a more forceful and stronger presence.

That said I have never been really fond of the sound any 7 string players has gotten. Ron Eshete to me has the best sound and can make that low A sound pretty good. GVE the master even I never cared to his tone the way I do with other guitarist. It is a bit muddy to me and not dynamic sounding. Even the great Lenny Breau I have always preferred his 6-string playing by a long shot. I find easily with Jimmy Bruno the same situation and i fact his work on the 6 far exceeds the 7 string. To me the 7 string just got in Jimmy's way.

To me it just ended up not being my thing and I knew deep down I was not going to get rid my my 6 string guitars. Ron Eshete said that you really have to give up on the 6 and make the 7 your choice.

[nyc chaz]

I always thought if there was one guy who would have benefited from a 7 string it would have been Joe Pass with all the solo work he did and the duets with Ella.I guess he just didn't want the hassle to make the adjustment.

[porter.fitch]

That said I have never been really fond of the sound any 7 string players has gotten.

I think part of this problem may be technical-- most 7 string archtops are built with a normal (25"ish) scale length, and I'm of the opinion that that's simply not long enough to get a solid low B or A. I think Jim Soloway has written here convincingly to that effect. I'm hoping to address this by playing a 26.5" 7.

For what it's worth, the two extended range guitarists whose sound I've found the most inspiring are Paul Galbraith and Charlie Hunter, neither of whom do anything super close to the 7 string archtop deal. Very different, but they both have sounds that are fully realized, to my ear. Although the way in which they approach the instrument couldn't be more different-- Galbraith's low register feels completely integrated, while Hunter's is separated from his treble register.

EDIT: spelling

[Jimmy blue note]

I've been playing 7 string for near two decades now, and I got my start after playing baritone tuning for a few years (like regular tuning tuned down a 4th).
Playing in that range with relatively standard tuning allowed me the bass range with the full vocabulary of chords I was used to. That meant that walking bass lines, voice leading, solo lines that used a counterpoint in the bass range and solo lines in the lower register (a la Steve Swallow's playing) were all there for me without that awkward stretch for a string tuned down a whole step from what I was used to.
Too, I didn't think of it as a baritone tuning, but I saw the guitar as standard tuning at the 5th fret and a whole range of lower register below the 5th fret.
When I thought "Hey, why don't I get another string, it felt and played like extending the overall range without sacrificing any of the melodic potential of the lowest string. It essentially allowed me to play like a "normal" 6 string guitar but eliminating the need to shift as much when going beyond the 6 string range: The lower notes are right there as they would be on a 6, only on the next string.

I'm not so much into strumming, so it's not an advantage for me to have the 5 string doubled. I DO voice lead and play counterpoint lines A LOT so having tuning in 4ths down there is an effortless string orientation.

My feeling is if you want to play standard chord grabs with the 5th string doubled below, Low A is the Go-To. If you want to play lines throughout the range, want to play up on the neck, have high notes without changing your linear playing style in the bass range, low B is a very good option.

My chord vocabulary, voicings, voice leading a la Mick's cycles and close voicing sounds, are well suited for low B tuning. You can essentially use the same chord voicings with bass note on the 7th as you would bass on the 6th.

I'll add that this kind of tuning, with all 4ths on the bottom, is what allowed Lenny Breau to play the way he did, where he played standard tuning with a high A on top. Low B has similarity to this except it's extension is shifted to the bass string (it'a a little different on the top but I'm just sayin')

I do like the ease of low A, but for me, the bass string is a MELODIC string so I go with 4ths down there with a low B.
Added benefit is you know those really nice chord voicings with the root on the second string? You can double that HIGH voice with the 7th and it adds a whole new dimension to your chording.

Either way, give both a try. And ask yourself where your harmonic concept comes from, stick to one and let it become second nature.

[porter.fitch]

Either way, give both a try. And ask yourself where your harmonic concept comes from, stick to one and let it become second nature.

Similarly, it was playing baritone that got me started thinking about adding a string. I want it all!
Thanks for your input! I've chosen a couple of my solo arrangements to try in low B and low A. I'm adapting all of my solo tunes for the 7, so adding on a couple more in a different tuning doesn't increase my work by that much. So far, the low A seems easier, but that's to be expected at first-- I'll keep exploring and see what B has to offer.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The biggest problem I have with the string is the way it sounds, as notes do no pop out like they do on the low E. I wanted a more forceful and stronger presence.

I think the problem there is twofold. First, most 7 string players and makers try for a more bass-like 7th, rather than a lower string that's seamlessly integrated into the tonality of the other 6. Second, the choice of amplifier, speaker, and EQ is critical to getting a musical 7th string (and even more so the lower the string is tuned).

Most 7th strings sound mushy and flabby through bass amps, while most guitar amp & speaker combinations have too little of the fundamental and too much 2nd harmonic. A lot of 2nd harmonic distortion reinforces the note an octave above the fundamental, which is what gives it that slightly boomy and lsightly shallow tone. This does make a 6 string sound like it goes deeper, because you hear the intermodulation of the fumdamental and the 2nd harmonic as additional energy at the fundamental frequency. but it's the difference frequency between the actula note and its scond harmonic. This detracts from the natural tone of the guitar by unbalancing its harmonic spectrum with that added low frequency content. So it sounds dull and muddy. It's even worse when the player turns the bass EQ up in an effort to bolster the sound of the 7th string. Most 7th strings sound their best (and more like the other 6 exccept lower) with bass EQ rolled off a good bit.

Remember that the lowest note on a standard guitar is 82.4 Hz (low E at concert pitch). A low A on the 7th string is 55 Hz. Most guitar amp & speaker combinations are already rolled off by 3 dB or more at 82 and drop like rocks between 80 and 50. A low A from a 7 is well below the SPL of that second harmonic (110), and turning up the bass EQ boosts the harmonic content more than the fundamental because it starts several dB louder. How much of a problem this is depends on the Q of the bass filter, which is why some amps are better for 7s than others This is less of a problem with a bass amp, since modern bass amps are wide range becaue modern basses use the full frequency spectrum for effects, popping, snapping etc. Elecric bass tone is much more guitarlike now than it used to be, making currnet bass amps & speakers a better match for 7 string guitars than most guitar amps & speakers. And small speakers seem to control the woof better than big ones, despite the prevalence of 12s and 15s in the cabinets of 7 string jazz players. Phil Jones amps use very small drivers, adding more of them as the amps get higher in power - and they're great with 7s. My RevSound RS8 is excellent as well, but even my RE Bass 10 gets a bit boomy with the 7 at high volumes.

I've found that the Toob Metro BG+ does a wonderful job with tone from my 7 string archtops. Driven by my DVMark EG250, this is a beautiful combination for a 7. A BAM200 is not far behind, although it's not as warm and rich as the EG250 with its tube front end. The Blu 6 is also excellent for letting the 7th string sound like the other 6. A light touch also helps a lot. I'll add that the Quilter OD202 through the Block Dock 10 also lets the 7s sound great for solo jazz. The BlockDock 12HD is even a little better at high volumes, but it can get a little woofy on the lowest notes on an A 7th string when pushed hard. Then again, the BD10 won't get nearly that loud and the OD202 through the 12" Block Dock is into (and maybe even a bit above) Boogie Mark and Twin territory for loudness.

Here are two tracks that I think show how well that 7th can blend in with the other 6. But Beautiful is on my Eastman 810CE7 with JS113s and a 75 Chrome 7th played through a Blu 6. I purposely used close harmonies on the bottom 4 strings tos ee how well they'd be articulated. If Ever I Would Leave You is on the Ibanez AF207 (laminated) with GB114s + a 75 Chrome played through a DV Mark EG250 and Toob Metro BG+. These are part of a series of recordings I made with the same tunes played the same way comparing my guitars, amps and speakers, to choose the best combinations for my gigs.

[porter.fitch]

Really nice playing. And the 7 string does sound very natural-- those low descending lines transition very evenly into the lower register.

[cavemancocktail]

count me in for beadgbe. nice to have g-shape chords have an alternating bass a middle finger twitch away, as do e shape chords.

I also think the f# variant is amusing in sort of a renaissance fair lute/oud kind of way, but I far prefer the major third between my 3rd and 2nd strings. the charlie hunter tuning is also cool but to me makes more sense on an eight string for the same reason. that said, both of them have really interesting intervals available. and ofc I've heard interesting sounds from all fourths but i hate feeling like I'm playing a gigantic bass.

[tbeltrans]

For playing solo guitar with the 7th string tuned to 'B', check out this guy, Robert Burton in Winnepeg:

River Heights Music - YouTube

I am seriously considering taking a lesson or two from him via zoom. However, I have a pretty good idea of his system based on a couple of 7 string lessons he has already posted on youtube. He plays both standards and pop tunes and in comments under some of his videos, he explains why he chose the low 'B' even though he is typically a jazz player.

I have always tuned the 7th string to 'A' for reasons already mentioned, but am ow beginning to experiment a bit with the 'B' 7th string tuning.

Tony

[porter.fitch]

Well, a month and change in, I'm committed to low A. Low B is definitely cool-- it seems more useful for adding bass movement on chords with the root on the E string-- but shapes with the root on the 7th string lay out better in low A than in low B, imo.

I'm also finding that the different interval is more of an advantage than a hindrance. I keep running into things that are awkward on strings 1-6 that are comfortable on 2-7.

Lots of work left to do...

[tbeltrans]

Well, a month and change in, I'm committed to low A. Low B is definitely cool-- it seems more useful for adding bass movement on chords with the root on the E string-- but shapes with the root on the 7th string lay out better in low A than in low B, imo.

I'm also finding that the different interval is more of an advantage than a hindrance. I keep running into things that are awkward on strings 1-6 that are comfortable on 2-7.

Lots of work left to do...

In the interest of GAS, best to get TWO 7 string guitars. Keep one tuned with low 'A' and the other with low 'B'. Over time, decide which you prefer and then sell one of the guitars and keep one in the preferred tuning. Or, keep them both! I have a 7 string archtop and a 7 string acoustic.

Tony "glad to enable" B

Tony

[porter.fitch]

In the interest of GAS, best to get TWO 7 string guitars. Keep one tuned with low 'A' and the other with low 'B'. Over time, decide which you prefer and then sell one of the guitars and keep one in the preferred tuning. Or, keep them both! I have a 7 string archtop and a 7 string acoustic.

Tony "glad to enable" B

Tony

I've spent enough time moving between standard and drop D that retuning the 7th string feels fine. I appreciate the enabling, though!

Although, that raises the idea that a person could develop some fluency with low A and low B. I use drop D for several solo arrangements, and changing from low E to low D shouldn't be any more challenging than changing between low B and low A. Maybe flexibility is a worthwhile goal here.