One octave scales - VIDEO

[PMB]

Shucks, video is good too.

I would be really interested in a more systematic way to extend them?

I feel like that sort of relies a bit on people knowing those bigger patterns in the back of their head, right?

Similarly, there are a thousand videos showing CAGED, Berklee and 3NPS scales with the standard shifts or stretches incorporating fingers 1-4 yet I can't recall any that discuss in detail how players who barely use their pinky like Wes or Bernstein negotiate the fret board. Where and how do the shifts occur, are they primarily ergonomic or related to a larger structural system?

[pamosmusic]

I saw a YouTube short on pentachords. Seemed cool but it was for piano and I’m too lazy to move it to guitar. I’m finally getting a hang on the chord/diminished harmony.

tetrachords and pentachords refer to the arrangement of scale steps in a four or five note group.

like a major scale from the root is W W h but from the third it’s h W W. There are a limited number of these that occur regularly so they’re super practical on piano because of the way scales fall under each hand.

Useful on guitar too because they make for a modular way of assembling a large number of scales

[Christian Miller]

I was just thinking I need to reread that bit of Randy Vincent

which is the third or fourth time I’ve said that to myself in the last few weeks and I’ve yet to do it

Dunno about Randy Vincent. I pinched the idea from the Arabic music theory and 18th century solfeggio.

They used to sing Do re mi fa sol re mi Fa, for a scale dontchaknow…. Mi fa always on the half step.

Reading a guitar book? Whaaaaa??!!?! Let me tortuously reinvent the wheel!


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[pamosmusic]

Dunno about Randy Vincent. I pinched the idea from the Arabic music theory and 18th century solfeggio.

They used to sing Do re mi fa sol re mi Fa, for a scale…. Mi fa always on the half step.

Reading a guitar book? Whaaaaa??!!?! Let me tortuously reinvent the wheel!


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Oh man … yeah … guitarists intro to jazz approaches scales using tetrachord fingerings. I’ll reread it. I remember thinking “oh that’s so smart” and then getting distracted by a shinier object.

[Christian Miller]

Oh man … yeah … guitarists intro to jazz approaches scales using tetrachord fingerings. I’ll reread it. I remember thinking “oh that’s so smart” and then getting distracted by a shinier object.

It’s nice when you mirror them at the tritone. Duncan Lamont had a whole bunch of scales like that.

The 7b5-dim do be like that

Do re mi fa, up a half step do re mi fa


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[pamosmusic]

Okay I misremembered …

he’s using “trichords,” so that’s three notes … W W, W h, h W … and he assembles the scales from there. Memorize the trichord from each scale degree and put the scales together that way. He plays them all on single strings. So you’d end up with 3nps fingerings. You could I guess do all one string, 2 notes on one string and 1 on the other, or vice versa.

I wonder what the practical difference would be for four notes. More useable tetrachords to keep track of for starters

Major: W W h
Wholetone: W W W
Phrygian: h W W
Minor: W h W
Diminished: h W h

Some with consecutive half steps that wouldn’t be super practical. So not too terribly many. But with four notes on a string. 3 and 1, 2 and 2, 1 and 3, it ends up being considerably more, I guess — but maybe more flexibility in the sorts of fingerings you end up with.

I’d probably go the extra step of putting the notes on string pairs as well. With that, I feel like it would be about as flexible as the tetrachords.

[bediles]

Similarly, there are a thousand videos showing CAGED, Berklee and 3NPS scales with the standard shifts or stretches incorporating fingers 1-4 yet I can't recall any that discuss in detail how players who barely use their pinky like Wes or Bernstein negotiate the fret board. Where and how do the shifts occur, are they primarily ergonomic or related to a larger structural system?

Most great players are not completionists esp in the GG/Wes school (in contrast to say, Ben Monder). I assume for the vast majority of these folks fingering choices would be intuitive and whatever makes the articulation and time feel work for them. Bernstein told me himself that he wasn't too interested in the various scale systems. Once they kinda figured out where the notes were, they likely didn't feel the need to systematize it, or for modern players where the info is out there, the systematizing didn't help their musicality too much so they stopped working that way (ex of what they don't do: position exercises, playing things everywhere, continuous chord tone or scale exercises etc.)

Funny, I like this kinda stuff but I would say in my experience, scale systems/mapping etc seem to be the most important thing for adult amateurs (looking for silver bullets and logic in a creative pursuit) and beginners (maybe rightly) and least important to 9/10 great players I know. Not meaning to be too reductionist. I think it comes down to personality type TBH.

With all that being said, just find something that works for you, maybe you don't need to practice scales anymore either. hehe, let the scale mapping convo continue, I'm still here for it.

[Mick-7]

I assume for the vast majority of these folks fingering choices would be intuitive and whatever makes the articulation and time feel work for them. Bernstein told me himself that he wasn't too interested in the various scale systems. Once they kinda figured out where the notes were, they likely didn't feel the need to systematize it, or for modern players where the info is out there, the systematizing didn't help their musicality too much so they stopped working that way (ex of what they don't do: position exercises, playing things everywhere, continuous chord tone or scale exercises etc.)

If you analyzed their playing, I bet you'd find a fingering system, but it's driven by their phrasing rather than by set patterns. That phrasing, how they tend to phrase their lines, becomes habitual (like any repeated physical action) and therefore systematic, it's just that it's structure is less apparent.

[bediles]

If you analyzed their playing, I bet you'd find a fingering system, but it's driven by their phrasing rather than by set patterns. That phrasing, how they tend to phrase their lines, becomes habitual (like any repeated physical action) and therefore systematic, it's just that it's structure is less apparent.

I bet, I dont have a specific example to share but the intent/order of operations is entirely different and I find that interesting. Players want to play.

[bediles]

found a great vid for the 3 finger curious and one that demonstrates what I getting at. Happened to be watching it just now.

[Christian Miller]

Similarly, there are a thousand videos showing CAGED, Berklee and 3NPS scales with the standard shifts or stretches incorporating fingers 1-4 yet I can't recall any that discuss in detail how players who barely use their pinky like Wes or Bernstein negotiate the fret board. Where and how do the shifts occur, are they primarily ergonomic or related to a larger structural system?

Maybe I should do one…

I think the shifts are both ergonomic and relate to how the phrase feels and should be slurred. This maybe a lot more intuitive than systematic. Which is not to say there’s no system to be derived from it.

But then the question is - how much is the system helpful and how much does it simply promote an over focus on technicalities as opposed to a holistic musical approach? And we know Pete is all about the music.

I think that’s the real quandary. I could write any number of nerdy tomes, but to what end?


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[Christian Miller]

Oh that’s what mick and bediles said haha


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[PMB]

Maybe I should do one…

I think the shifts are both ergonomic and relate to how the phrase feels and should be slurred. This maybe a lot more intuitive than systematic. Which is not to say there’s no system to be derived from it.

But then the question is - how much is the system helpful and how much does it simply promote an over focus on technicalities as opposed to a holistic musical approach? And we know Pete is all about the music.

I think that’s the real quandary. I could write any number of nerdy tomes, but to what end?


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I agree with everything said here, Christian along with the comments by bediles and Mick. Like you, I'm an autodidact when it comes to jazz guitar (and much else). I spent my early days from the age of 8 with no system whatsoever, playing up the string using 1, 2 then finally 3 fingers, a la Goodrick's 'unitar' rather than in 4-finger set positions. I was learning piano at the same time and tended to visualise the fret board in a similar manner (Pat Martino once described the guitar neck as 'six pianos'). I didn't come across CAGED until years later and I must admit it helped as a visual reference. Curiosity lead me to learning all my scales in 3NPS and Berklee 7 position forms as well and it meant that I wasn't locked into one set of fingerings as there's always the danger that the 'cart leads the horse'. Eventually, they all overlapped, cancelled each other out and fell away. These days, I mostly work on repertoire without thinking about scale forms, especially when dealing with bebop heads where everything goes out the window!

My interest in this thread regarding 3-finger technique is as a teacher. Even though that's pretty much the way I play, I teach CAGED initially as single octave forms then fill in the missing notes surrounding these octaves with the usual standard 'classical' fingerings including the pinky. I guess many of us do as it's an easy deliverable. I'd be interested if anyone has deduced a cogent 3-finger approach common to players like Wes, Bernstein, Broom etc. that incorporates slides and overreaching the 3rd finger. If so, I'd advocate that as the default.

[AllanAllen]

I learned and practice the scales 4 fingers but mostly play 3 fingers. I don’t really think about it except for something like Parker heads where I stick to one fingering.

[pauln]

Good stuff.

Yes, I find that the Bebop cliches use very awkward guitar fingerings.

Probably, because they are mostly originally Sax lines.

Below: Even this classic Parker cliche is awkward for me.
Attachment 118272

Try this three finger solution if you can use bar hops for same fret notes
First play the chords like this for reference
[x x 10 11 10 x]
[x x 9 10 9 x]
[x x 10 10 12 x]
then
bar hop the top and bottom of the first chord with third finger
play the Bb [x x 8 x x x] with the first finger
bar hop the bottom and top of the second chord with second finger
play the F F# G [x x x (10-11-12) x x] with the third finger

[GuyBoden]

Try this three finger solution if you can use bar hops for same fret notes
First play the chords like this for reference
[x x 10 11 10 x]
[x x 9 10 9 x]
[x x 10 10 12 x]
then
bar hop the top and bottom of the first chord with third finger
play the Bb [x x 8 x x x] with the first finger
bar hop the bottom and top of the second chord with second finger
play the F F# G [x x x (10-11-12) x x] with the third finger

Interesting, but personally I find that more difficult, due to the fact that I exclusively use 4 fingers for fretting. If I was a 3 finger player it would be easier.

[Christian Miller]

I can play it with thee fingers but I wouldn’t personally do it that way

I do 3 2 1 ho 2 3 1 2 slide 2

But my fingering is very non positional. Hard to explain. So here’s a vid:

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[Christian Miller]

I agree with everything said here, Christian along with the comments by bediles and Mick. Like you, I'm an autodidact when it comes to jazz guitar (and much else). I spent my early days from the age of 8 with no system whatsoever, playing up the string using 1, 2 then finally 3 fingers, a la Goodrick's 'unitar' rather than in 4-finger set positions. I was learning piano at the same time and tended to visualise the fret board in a similar manner (Pat Martino once described the guitar neck as 'six pianos'). I didn't come across CAGED until years later and I must admit it helped as a visual reference. Curiosity lead me to learning all my scales in 3NPS and Berklee 7 position forms as well and it meant that I wasn't locked into one set of fingerings as there's always the danger that the 'cart leads the horse'. Eventually, they all overlapped, cancelled each other out and fell away. These days, I mostly work on repertoire without thinking about scale forms, especially when dealing with bebop heads where everything goes out the window!

My interest in this thread regarding 3-finger technique is as a teacher. Even though that's pretty much the way I play, I teach CAGED initially as single octave forms then fill in the missing notes surrounding these octaves with the usual standard 'classical' fingerings including the pinky. I guess many of us do as it's an easy deliverable. I'd be interested if anyone has deduced a cogent 3-finger approach common to players like Wes, Bernstein, Broom etc. that incorporates slides and overreaching the 3rd finger. If so, I'd advocate that as the default.

While I'm mostly "self-taught" in the jazz sphere* I had early classical guitar lessons, so it's not quite the same. The finger-a-fret rule was instilled in me in short order and I use to play my blues scales with my pinky as a teen guitar mangler haha. So this three finger thing goes against the grain for me which is why I still use the four finger approach by default. It's hard to get out of those habits, and obviously it works great for chords and polyphonic playing which I've been doing a lot lately.

I would say my approach prior to about 2015 or whenever it was was CAGED. I had experimented with 3nps, but ended up not using it.

Absolutely agree re lines. I don't think of bop lines positionally at all. I got out of that when I started to learn it by ear. My fingers usually had an intuitive idea of how to make phrases flow that I lacked when reading off a chart.

Miles Okazaki seems like the sort of person to systematise it and he's a three finger guy by choice. Is it in any of his books I wonder?

* I actually think this is true of all jazz musicians regardless of what it says on their CV, I mean I'm self taught apart from those Barry classes I went to, those workshops I did, those percussion and rhythm lessons, that lesson with so and so, and so on and so forth. So on balance I think it's about the same as someone who went to jazz school. I've had a fair bit of input even though I haven't had many actual jazz guitar one to ones. TBH a lot of those guitar lessons at uni sound like open sessions anyway with much more broad and mentor-like feedback anyway, and with a lot of playing. I don't think they are teaching scale fingerings by the time you get to the conservatoire. Maybe more so at the big schools like Berklee.

[GuyBoden]

I can play it with thee fingers but I wouldn’t personally do it that way

I do 3 2 1 ho 2 3 1 2 slide 2

But my fingering is very non positional. Hard to explain. So here’s a vid:

Yes, your 3 finger non-positional method seems the easiest, and more importantly, better sounding way to play the phrase, even for an 'exclusively 4 fingers' player like myself.

[grahambop]

I can play it with thee fingers but I wouldn’t personally do it that way

I do 3 2 1 ho 2 3 1 2 slide 2

But my fingering is very non positional. Hard to explain. So here’s a vid:

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haha I find it easier to do it the ‘wrong’ way (I mean the way you say we shouldn’t, i.e. extending the 4th finger and staying in position). I’ve played this kind of phrase that way for years. Also it allows me to strongly accent the 5th note and the last note, I thought that’s what I heard Parker do, kind of makes a nice asymmetrical rhythm.

But I do remember it being a bit awkward at first, to be fair.

[Christian Miller]

haha I find it easier to do it the ‘wrong’ way (I mean the way you say we shouldn’t, i.e. extending the 4th finger and staying in position). I’ve played this kind of phrase that way for years. Also it allows me to strongly accent the 5th note and the last note, I thought that’s what I heard Parker do, kind of makes a nice asymmetrical rhythm.

But I do remember it being a bit awkward at first, to be fair.

Well it’s not wrong haha. I just don’t like it.


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[Christian Miller]

I think I would naturally emphasise the 5th and last note myself? It seems the obvious accentuation. I’m not sure how left hand fingering would affect this.


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[Christian Miller]

Oh wait…

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[grahambop]

I think I would naturally emphasise the 5th and last note myself? It seems the obvious accentuation. I’m not sure how left hand fingering would affect this.


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you’re sliding into the last note I think? I find it hard to accent it like that.

Maybe it’s also something to do with the RH picking, I haven’t really analysed it.

[Christian Miller]

Bleh