Experiment

[pamosmusic]

TBH it sounds like you did not think much of the melody.

Note the word “exercise” in the subject line.

[pamosmusic]

First 8

Attachment 113711

Pretty good so far. Thinking I’m smarter than I am in the purple section though

[ragman1]

First 8

Hey, big brain, give the others a chance!

I've got a pretty juicy one which I'll post at the appropriate time... you'll like it

[Mick-7]

Dear THEORY CATS

stella exercise.pdf - Google Drive

wtf was I thinking?

My first impression is: emphasizing chord tones

TBH it sounds like you did not think much of the melody.

Shall we rename Peter's version... Stella By Torchlight?

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd like to understand the upper structure thinking.

Bar 1. The chord is Em7b5. That's a rootless C9. If you play a C triad, leaning on the C, it's going to sound like C9 or maybe C9/E. It isn't going to sound like an A7 upper structure, or am I missing something?

In Bar 2 you get to the #9 of A7 (the C) in beat 4. And, it would probably be heard as a push of the next chord, Cm7.

So, I don't get how this is employing an A7 upper structure, except as a kind of complicated way of thinking about it. But, maybe this is a kind of null case and using this line of thought will be more productive in a different instance?

Bar 3 is chord tones except for the Bb or F (depending on whether you're playing against Cm7 or F7. So, you're suspending a 4th. What's the advantage of thinking about upper structure?

Bar 4 is chord tones and a few notes anticipating bar 5.

Please don't take this as an argument. You sound good. So I'm interested in how you're thinking about it.

[Mick-7]

All the notes are in F or Eb Major, so only two scales needed to play the entire thing.

[pamosmusic]

I’ll let yall speculate a bit longer. Obviously I can’t comment until we’ve heard from Christians “big brain.”

[ragman1]

The same results can be obtained using triads and quadrads but I don't use them.

• Em7b5 - A7b9 = Gm - C7 (relative maj for minor sub) = C7 = C -------- C E G.
• Cm7 - F7 = BbM7 3for1 sub* -------- D F A Bb.
• Fm7 - Bb7 - EbM7 = EbM7 3for1 sub* -------- Eb G Bb D.
• Ab7 = Ab -------- Ab C Eb.

* The 3for1 sub can be played over ii - V, i.e. Em over Dm-G7. Or in fact any diatonic chord in the scale.

What's clever isn't finding the notes but their use and positioning in the solo. Very good.

[supersoul]

wtf was I thinking?

it seems to me that you're thinking simple triads.

First 8 bars, you follow a circle of 4ths of major triads: C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab.

Next 8 bars I'm not sure about. You start on Bb Maj and make your way to an A min triad.

Starting on the bridge (measure 17) you're playing major triads except for one minor: Bb - Cmin - Ab - Bb Up and down by whole steps. You are following the bridge of (G alt7, Cm, Ab, Bb).

Last 8 bars are C - Bb - Ab - Bb, which roughly follow the descending minor ii-Vs that start with E-7b5

All this with the caveat that I'm not a THEORY person. Oh, and my stupid color coding has no meaning. I wanted a different color every time a triad changed, but it got out of hand.

[pamosmusic]

I’m tired of waiting for Christian’s Big Brain.

I hereby declare that I will reveal my secrets in the eight o’clock hour (US Eastern … so like … four hours from now).

The suspense is killing you all, I’m sure.

[pamosmusic]

Alright …


So I’ve been working with some students on taking some characteristic chord progressions and big time simplifying them.

so ii-V becomes V … iii IV ii V becomes I V, etc.

The goal here would be to teach them the simplest way of navigating the ii-V and teach them to recognize the ii-V in all its disguises … bVI-V-I, Vs that resolve to somewhere else, etc… and get them reducing all of those to just the V chord to start improvising the changes and playing the harmonic motion of the tune in a simple way. Then start adding ways of playing V … then start adding back in those other disguised ii-Vs, so that they get good at recognizing them, and have a whole repertoire of ways to move back to I that are interchangeable.

One of my students in particular is super into it and it’s early but it seems to be working for him so far. But at the beginning he was like … “this seems like cheating.” So I played that recording of Stella doing the most streamlined changes I could work out and playing only root structure triads with no passing notes, just to show him it could sound musical and cool. And all the stuff we build back in will be gravy.

ANYWAY …

for any ii-V or variation of ii-V I stripped it back to just the V

for minor ii-Vs, I played the relative major ii-V (Sheryl Bailey formulation, amounts to the same thing as “dominant up a minor 3”) … and then played just the V

For turnarounds it’s I then V … and there are some others but Stella is mostly just the ii-Vs. Hes working mostly on those at the moment, so that’s why I picked it.

Streamlining things that way, I played these changes:

C7 - - - F7 - - -
Bb7 - - - Eb - Ab7
Bb - C7 - Dm - Eb7 -
F - C7 - F7 - - -
Bb7 - - - Cm - - -
Ab7 - - - Bb - - -
C7 - - - Bb7 - - -
Ab7 - - - Bb - - -

And only the root structure triad for each.

[Mick-7]

So I’ve been working with some students on taking some characteristic chord progressions and big time simplifying them - so ii-V becomes V … iii IV ii V becomes I V, etc.

I did notice that, which as I said resulted in using only two major scales (F & Eb), that you could combine to get:
F-G-Ab-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-E = Major scale with the b3rd & b7th added.

[pamosmusic]

I did notice that, which as I said resulted in using only two major scales (F & Eb), that you could combine to get:
F-G-Ab-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-E = Major scale with the b3rd & b7th added.

I suppose that’s true, but the scales themselves don’t work well except over limited sections of the tune.

Though I should credit supersoul with getting most of the triads right, and Ragman with getting that relative major ii-V for the minor trick.

And Christian made oblique reference to Jordan Klemons … the sounds are not Jordan but picking a limited range and using only triad notes is definitely a practice idea I stole from him

[ragman1]

In that case I'll offer this. Be warned it's tricky.

This is the first solo on CPW from a much longer take done in Nov 2021. The notes are not random, they followed a schema.

Hint: It's not triads.
Tip: Note the long D in bar 2 becomes the #11 of AbM7... and so on. Good luck :-)

[Mick-7]

I suppose that’s true, but the scales themselves don’t work well except over limited sections of the tune.

All the note and triads in your exercise came from the two scales I mentioned (F & Eb Major). If you want to cover the remaining chords you listed, Eb7 & Ab7, you could substitute another scale for Eb Major, such as Db Major (that'll give you a Db/C# to play over the Dm triad) - or use C Major and Db Major, etc. There are a few 2 scale combos that would work.

[Mick-7]

In that case I'll offer this. Be warned it's tricky. This is the first solo on CPW from a much longer take done in Nov 2021. The notes are not random, they followed a schema.

Oh, you're just outlining the changes.... of a different tune.

[ragman1]

Oh, you're just outlining the changes.... of a different tune.

No :-)

It was played to that backing but it definitely wasn't meant to be functional. I got bored with being lyrical over a slow ballad. Or, rather, what I was doing was boring so I perked it up a bit.

[pamosmusic]

All the note and triads in your exercise came from the two scales I mentioned (F & Eb Major). If you want to cover the remaining chords you listed, Eb7 & Ab7, you could substitute another scale for Eb Major, such as Db Major (that'll give you a Db/C# to play over the Dm triad) - or use C Major and Db Major, etc. There are a few 2 scale combos that would work.

Yeah but that’s just trivia. You can’t actually use just those two scales over most of the tune.

Neither scale will work in the following measures:

m3-4, m8, m12, m15-16, m21-22, m29-30

That’s a third of the tune. So it’s interesting to know that the triads I happened to choose come from those, but at any given time, the scales themselves are not terribly useful. You’d need a few others.

[Mick-7]

Yeah but that’s just trivia. You can’t actually use just those two scales over most of the tune.

Neither scale will work in the following measures:

m3-4, m8, m12, m15-16, m21-22, m29-30

That’s a third of the tune. So it’s interesting to know that the triads I happened to choose come from those, but at any given time, the scales themselves are not terribly useful. You’d need a few others.

I meant using the notes from those scales but I suppose that's too abstract. Don't know offhand what the essential scales would be, something to think about.

[ragman1]

I think I'll just wrap my one up because there's not the enthusiasm to answer as there was at the beginning.

Essentially, it's just notes over chords. Triads aren't involved. As Peter did, the 2-5's are reduced to just the V and tension notes played against them. But they were also put in over the M7's too.

The simplest way is to describe it like this:

BM7 - A7#9
DM7 - Eb7
AbM7#11 - C7alt
FM7 lyd - F#7

BM7 - A7alt
DM7 D minor over major
BM7 - BM7/C#m/B
BM7#5 - F#7b13

BM7 - A7alt
DM7

It's fairly easy if you're familiar with available tension notes, otherwise it's tricky. Playing a minor scale over a major chord is permissible as long as it sounds okay, which in this case it probably does.

Next...

[ragman1]

I meant using the notes from those scales but I suppose that's too abstract. Don't know offhand what the essential scales would be, something to think about.

He's right, the notes don't come from the F and Eb scales, it just looks that way. In fact, the strict use of those two scales wouldn't have worked properly in any case. They're taken from the subs and triads he used.

Any similarity to the use of two scales to play over the form is coincidental. Whether using a very small palette of notes was intentional is another matter, although I suspect it was.

[Mick-7]

I think I'll just wrap my one up because there's not the enthusiasm to answer as there was at the beginning.

No offense, but it didn't sound good to me, like Eric Dolphy on an off night, so I didn't try to decipher it. It was obvious you were playing a lot of "avoid" notes, too many for my taste, they're fine to be used as a spice but too much can give your listener aural indigestion.

[ragman1]

No offense, but it didn't sound good to me, like Eric Dolphy on an off night, so I didn't try to decipher it. It was obvious you were playing a lot of "avoid" notes, too many for my taste, they're fine to be used as a spice but too much can give your listener aural indigestion.

Understood, but there's no point in setting something anybody can work out otherwise it's not a test. And there were no 'avoid' notes, there were only legitimate tension notes, as I've already posted.

[Mick-7]

Understood, but there's no point in setting something anybody can work out otherwise it's not a test. And there were no 'avoid' notes, there were only legitimate tension notes, as I've already posted.

I believe a major 3rd over an m7 chord and major 7th over a Dom.7th chord are considered "avoid" notes, I don't know if the term is synonymous with "tension" notes. But tension notes that don't resolve, as in your second measure (in particular, but actually throughout the piece) are something I wish to avoid, because my aim is to play elegant melodic lines.

[Jonah]

I am not much into strict tool analysis of jazz solo, to me basic approach is enough…
I also do not analyse melodic line in details theoretically

• Arpeggios mostly (indluding extended arps)
• Lines built diatonically/chromatically on arpeggios
• Appogiaturas (avoidance of/playing around/postponement of resolutions)
• Lots of 9 and 11 on beat
• blues

But these are all 'elements' that form the overall sound, the main thing is still the integrity of the melody.

Of course I could also say something like ‘superimposed triads’ like Am or C over F, or Dm over F, or I could say there is a particular 'scale' here and there...
but I do not like those implications, for me it is more like practical tools of organization on the instrument rather than a musical tool.
Also I am not trained this way so I do not tend to hear it this way.
Firs thing I see is a melody expressing the harmony (general feel) in an individual way (where you put accents, suspensions, chromatic notes, resolutions).