Thinking theory

[Bobby Timmons]

Lit. So one post where he literally says “it may qualify as theory” and happens to be citing another person, and a second post where he’s explicitly citing another person.

Yet the upheaval surrounding the blatant fact that Bach used theory.

[pamosmusic]

Yet the upheaval surrounding the blatant fact that Bach used theory.

Again … no one ever said he didn’t use theory.

One of the posts you pointed out was Christian quoting someone else, then saying that sure you could call that theory. The other one was a post where Christian was referencing someone else and said that that person “had a different definition of theory than you.”

Then again you’ve been going on and on about this for pages and pages when no one is arguing the contrary.

Upheaval, thy name is Bobby.

[pamosmusic]

I think this ranks among the dumbest threads I’ve ever participated in, and the competition is fierce

[Bobby Timmons]

Ok semanticize how I'm off base for fending off alt facts.

[jameslovestal]

I think this ranks among the dumbest threads I’ve ever participated in, and the competition is fierce

Yea, more strawmen here than in the Wizzard of Oz!

[Jimmy blue note]

Mark, OP, I hope you're amused.
AND... I hope you're spending at least as much time playing by your own rules, unfolding the currents and eddies of your own mind, as the time it takes to read this thread.
Please share the sounds you discover.
Music. Finding the manifestation of the sublime. I'm listening.

[BreckerFan]

You know what I'm referring to. 'Not aural skills.' Is intellectually knowing that the guitar is tuned EADGBE aural ability? No. Just tuning the guitar to those notes that they're supposed to be is aural skills.

I'm going to take a break from the forum and practice my alt-BH. Mad at theory thread redux has made me weary.

No, I don't know what you're referring to, and I think that's the point. You clearly have a meaning, but the definition you're offering doesn't communicate what it is. The definition doesn't rule in or out the examples that I gave. But when people say they don't know what you mean, you basically call them stupid.

I also still don't see how being able to tune a guitar tells me anything about the "structure of music", because I'm not sure what the structure of music is supposed to mean. Tuning the guitar doesn't help me analyze stablemates, or construct a c major chord, or count in 7/8, etc.

Perhaps, it is not a good definition.

[Bobby Timmons]

I don't think you're stupid, I think you're playing dumb to be argumentative.

What kind of strawman is that, if you know how to tune your guitar, it should fill in other aspects of theory, or it's not theory? That was nonsensical.

Theory is any information for how to play, understand, conceptualize, structure etc music that isn't music itself. Examples, the harmonized diatonic scales, how to tune your guitar, music notation, building chords, associating melody possibilities with harmony, Bach writing a prelude and fugue in every key and developing the theme in different voices, BH 6th/dim, family, and half step guidelines, etc. How is that not clear?

If it's stuff you perform or understand that is only aural, it is aural skills.

If it's stuff that you practice into your hands to execute mechanically it's technical skills..

[pamosmusic]

So my old classical guitar teacher also was an excellent classroom teacher. For a while last year, I taught this middle school guitar ensemble club thing. He would come observe me and send me pretty extensive notes.

There was this one time when he was observing when I was trying to get the kids on board with something and they were all getting it wrong, and it turned out I had done something silly like said they should be using a G chord when the C chord was what the music told them. And anyway, I went over and looked at their music and was like "whoops, my bad, ya'll are right."

Anyway ... my guitar teacher stops me after and was like "good move."

And he tells me that his rule of thumb is that if one kid doesn't understand, then you should assume you're doing it right. If five kids don't understand, you should consider trying it another way. If no one understands, then you should assume you're the one who's wrong.

Just some food for thought.

[BreckerFan]

I don't think you're stupid, I think you're playing dumb to be argumentative.

What kind of strawman is that, if you know how to tune your guitar, it should fill in other aspects of theory, or it's not theory? That was nonsensical.

Theory is any information for how to play, understand, conceptualize, structure etc music that isn't music itself. Examples, the harmonized diatonic scales, how to tune your guitar, music notation, building chords, associating melody possibilities with harmony, Bach writing a prelude and fugue in every key and developing the theme in different voices, BH 6th/dim, family, and half step guidelines, etc. How is that not clear?

If it's stuff you perform or understand that is only aural, it is aural skills.

If it's stuff that you practice into your hands to execute mechanically it's technical skills..

I'm not being argumentative. I am being a little pedantic, but it seems like this is the place to be pedantic, so.

I of course wasn't saying that tuning a guitar has to tell you all everything about theory. I was listing things that I would understand as related to the structure of music, and I don't see how being able to tune a guitar relates to those. You seem to have a different idea of the "structure of music", which you haven't elaborated, and therefore makes your definition undefined.

By your latest expanded definition, I don't see how a recorded waveform is not music theory. It is a way to conceptualize music; in fact, it conceptualizes it more accurately and comprehensively than sheet music does. By extension, the binary digital encoding of a waveform is also music theory, because it is another way to conceptualize music.

If you want to accept that binary is music theory, well then reductio complete.

[Bobby Timmons]

Okie dokie. It's the academic side of music, not sound recording.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not being argumentative. I am being a little pedantic, but it seems like this is the place to be pedantic, so.

I welcome both you, and your waveform

[BreckerFan]

I welcome both you, and your waveform

My wife thinks this is all hilarious, I'll have you know.

[BreckerFan]

Okie dokie. It's the academic side of music, not sound recording.

Binary encoding of a waveform is very academic. Moreso than tuning a guitar.

[pauln]

Do you realize how weird it is that you're saying Bach "is" theory?

May he meant like the way Dr. Fauci said he was Science.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm obviously talking about the academic side of music itself, not sound recording.

Peter, are you going to step in and call BreckerFan on improper conduct? :P

[BreckerFan]

I'm obviously talking about the academic side of music itself, not sound recording.

Peter, are you going to step in and call BreckerFan on improper conduct? :P

I still don't think that's a clear distinction, but I'll drop that for a sec. What we've established is that music theory is not ANY information that conceptualizes music. A waveform very easily fits that definition. So you need to amend your original definition. Because it was not clear.

Bringing it back to tuning that guitar, what aspect of music does being able to tune a guitar conceptualize, organize, etc?

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Uhh pitch? Tuning the guitar to pitch names rather than just auditory perception of what notes they should be.

I asked my pal the bot to help me since you guys are so aggressive.

Music Theory:
Music theory is the field of study that examines the elements and structures of music, focusing on the systems and methods used to understand and describe musical concepts. It involves the analysis and understanding of the building blocks of music beyond mere auditory perception. This includes:

• Scales: Ordered sequences of notes that provide the foundation for melodies and harmonies.
• Chords: Combinations of notes played simultaneously, forming the harmonic foundation of music.
• Diatonic Harmonized Scale: A sequence of chords derived from a scale, where each chord is built on a different note of the scale.
• Music Notation: A visual representation of musical sounds, including symbols for pitch, duration, dynamics, and articulation.
• Keys: Tonal centers around which pieces of music are organized, defined by specific scales.
• Harmony: The combination of different musical notes played or sung simultaneously to produce chords and chord progressions.
• Substitutions: The replacement of one chord with another, often to create variation or complexity.
• Time Signatures: Symbols that indicate the number of beats in each measure and the note value that represents one beat.
• Time Feel: The overall sense of rhythm and groove in a piece of music, including how beats are subdivided and accented.
• Counterpoint: The relationship between two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously.

Music theory provides a framework for musicians to compose, perform, and analyze music systematically, enabling a deeper understanding of the underlying principles that govern musical composition and performance.

[pamosmusic]

I'm obviously talking about the academic side of music itself, not sound recording.

Peter, are you going to step in and call BreckerFan on improper conduct? :P

I think maybe you should consider that if literally everyone you're talking to is misunderstanding your point, then it's possible you're not making it well.

[Bobby Timmons]

Further help from my pal the bot since you guys are so aggressive.

Music Theory vs. Pure Aural Perception:
Music Theory:Music theory is the academic study and analysis of the fundamental elements that make up music. It encompasses a range of concepts, systems, and methodologies used to describe and understand how music works. Music theory involves:

• Abstract Concepts: Music theory deals with abstract concepts such as scales, chords, harmony, and counterpoint, which are not directly perceived through hearing but are understood intellectually.
• Notation and Symbols: Music theory uses a variety of notational systems and symbols to represent musical sounds visually. This includes sheet music, chord charts, and other forms of written music.
• Analytical Frameworks: Theoretical analysis involves breaking down pieces of music to understand their structure, form, and the relationships between different musical elements.
• Historical and Cultural Context: Music theory also considers the historical and cultural contexts in which different musical styles and practices have developed.
• Predictive and Prescriptive: It provides tools for predicting how certain combinations of notes and rhythms will sound and prescribing methods for composing and performing music.

Pure Aural Perception:Pure aural perception refers to the direct experience of hearing music without the intermediary of theoretical knowledge or notation. This involves:

• Immediate Experience: Listening to music is an immediate sensory experience that involves perceiving sound waves through the ears and interpreting them in the brain.
• Emotional Response: Aural perception often elicits emotional responses, creating feelings of joy, sadness, excitement, or calmness, based solely on the sound.
• Intuitive Understanding: Musicians and listeners often develop an intuitive understanding of music through repeated exposure and practice, even without formal theoretical knowledge.
• Performance: When performing music, musicians rely heavily on their aural skills to maintain pitch, rhythm, and expression, especially in genres that emphasize improvisation.
• Cultural Nuances: Pure aural perception captures the nuances of performance practices, including timbre, dynamics, and expressive techniques that may not be fully captured by theoretical descriptions.

Distinction and Interplay:While music theory provides a structured and systematic approach to understanding music, pure aural perception is the raw, unmediated experience of music as sound. Both aspects are crucial to a comprehensive understanding of music:

• Complementary Roles: Theory and aural perception complement each other. Theory can enhance a musician's aural skills by providing a framework for understanding what they hear, while aural perception can inform and deepen a musician's theoretical knowledge.
• Educational Context: In music education, both theory and aural training are emphasized to develop well-rounded musicianship. Theory provides the intellectual tools, while aural skills enable practical application and deeper appreciation.
• Creative Process: In composition and improvisation, theoretical knowledge provides the building blocks and rules, while aural perception guides creative decisions and expressive choices.

[pamosmusic]

I have a question. Redirect, if you will.

How does Bobby Timmons practice?

What do you do when you practice?

[Bobby Timmons]

I think maybe you should consider that if literally everyone you're talking to is misunderstanding your point, then it's possible you're not making it well.

Ok, again I guess I am misunderstanding. Waveforms could be considered part of theory. Sound recording is not part of music theory. That's its own discipline.

[Bobby Timmons]

I have a question. Redirect, if you will.

How does Bobby Timmons practice?

What do you do when you practice?

I pick a topic to work on. It could be repertoire, just practicing a song. It could be melody, copping licks, working out my scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. It could be time feel where I focus on breaking it down into consistency, precision, and flexibility. Bass playing is essentially consistency and precision only. Right now I'm working on from the warped mind of Bobby Timmons Jr some Alt-BH chording.

[pamosmusic]

I pick a topic to work on. It could be repertoire, just practicing a song. It could be melody, copping licks, working out my scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. It could be time feel where I focus on breaking it down into consistency, precision, and flexibility. Bass playing is essentially consistency and precision only. Right now I'm working on from the warped mind of Bobby Timmons Jr some Alt-BH chording.

Say you're going to work on blues and you want to work on chromatics. What do you do?

[Bobby Timmons]

Approaches and enclosures to chord tones. Also practice just winging it with chromatics. I winged it with chromatics on my No Mo clip. I suppose I could look for notes to add to the blues/mix scale.