Would like some advice on improving reading from Real Book

[jobabrinks]

Guitar player for many years.

I had a jam with some guys recently, and it went blah-ish.

One thing that I've always had a problem with is playing melodies I know, both out of my head and out of the Real Book. And I need to improve that to get people to play with me.

But specifically, what I want to improve on is .... turning to a page in the Real Book of a song I have heard before, and is not on the difficult side (Parker heads) and play through it. I don't have to be able to nail every single rhythm or note, just get through it for now.

I'm only looking to do this from the Real Book and only from songs I've heard before, so ... it seems like a reasonable goal.

I guess, one of the things I've avoided doing is practicing through doing this without stopping. But that just results in murdering certain note groups and rhythms and measures.

I guess another thing I don't really do is think of which key I'm in as tonality changes. I'm really focused on the written key, notes, and accidentals.

Any tips would be appreciated.

[pamosmusic]

Guitar player for many years.

I had a jam with some guys recently, and it went blah-ish.

One thing that I've always had a problem with is playing melodies I know, both out of my head and out of the Real Book. And I need to improve that to get people to play with me.

But specifically, what I want to improve on is .... turning to a page in the Real Book of a song I have heard before, and is not on the difficult side (Parker heads) and play through it. I don't have to be able to nail every single rhythm or note, just get through it for now.

I'm only looking to do this from the Real Book and only from songs I've heard before, so ... it seems like a reasonable goal.

I guess, one of the things I've avoided doing is practicing through doing this without stopping. But that just results in murdering certain note groups and rhythms and measures.

I guess another thing I don't really do is think of which key I'm in as tonality changes. I'm really focused on the written key, notes, and accidentals.

Any tips would be appreciated.

I think the practicing through without stopping is the important part. Mistakes go unnoticed, but trainwrecks happen when you stop or lose your place.

So if you want to practice reading at sight, then you have to practice reading at sight. It’s sort of its own skill.

[jameslovestal]

My take is there are only 3 different 'roles' midlevel players one need in a jam: playing the melody, playing the harmony (or rhythm, mostly using chords), and soloing.

The melody is typically only played at the start and end, thus if one doesn't know it well, have someone else play it. (but don't take this as a way to avoid learning melodies!).

Using the real book or just lead-sheets doesn't require the reading of notes. Thus, just learn to read lead sheets for songs one knows but where they don't have the chord progressions committed to memory. Unless a song has a lot of chords per bar, and\or is played real fast it should not be difficult to see a chord progression on a lead sheet and play that progression.

For soloing: this shouldn't be too difficult if one has a good ear, as well as knowing the basic scales and chord tones to play over various chord progressions (e.g. II\V\I). Of course, it helps to know the melody so one can play a melodic solo, but this is where having a good ear comes into play.

As someone else noted practice is the way to go. I.e. ask the others what songs they typically play and practice these (e.g. use a looper, put chord progression in the looper and play melody and then solo over the changes until their ingrained into one's body and soul).

[pawlowski6132]

Just play it w/o, the Real Book. If you know the song, what do you need the Real Book for anyway????? I don't understand that, especially for melody. If you can hum the song to yourself in your head, learn to play it on the guitar. Once you start depending on music written down, you're FU&*ED.

Same with chords, but, don't learn, the chords in the key written, learn the progression, and not necessarily as written, just strip it down to the fundamental chords.

[Cunamara]

Reading is a bugaboo I have struggled with for 40 years as a guitarist. back when I was first learning the guitar, my teacher just did not push reading music, hard enough, and I wasn't intrinsically motivated to do so. Compared to when I was in grade school and taking cello, reading and learning to play the cello were not treated as separate items and I think that's probably true of all classical instruments at that age. But most people learn to play the guitar without learning to read simultaneously. And frankly, my inability to read has held me back from even attempting to pursue more playing with others. I did a gig about three months ago, which included a pianist, something I rarely do as guitar and piano together are fraught with opportunities for bad things. An encore was requested, a tune was called that the pianist didn't know off the top of his head and didn't have a chart for. He came and looked over my shoulder for about two minutes, I could hear him humming the song as he was reading the chart, and then he went back to the piano and played it without referencing the sheet music again; and he got it spot on. That is a set of skills I do not have.

If I already know the melody well (not necessarily to play it from memory, but to be able to hear it in my mind), I can see how it works on the page; when sight reading a song I've never heard before, it's impossible for me to even remotely sound like the actual melody. Reading familiar melodies is probably an easy place to start, but it's easy to rely on the inner ear and to not actually be reading the chart when you do that.

There are several components to sight reading. One of them is identifying what notes to play, another is identifying the rhythm structure of the melody. To me, this is the much greater part of my particular problem. A metronome really helps develop this, which I am not diligent enough at using. It's not listening to you. It doesn't care whether you are in time or not and it is not going to try to save you, it just clicks out the beat. You have to conform to it.

[mr. beaumont]

Sit with the Real Book and pick an easy song, and sing the rhythms.

Pitches are unimportant at this point...sing the harmonic rhythm. Rhythm is what hangs most people up, because they focus so much on pitch...

[Cunamara]

Just play it w/o, the Real Book. If you know the song, what do you need the Real Book for anyway????? I don't understand that, especially for melody. If you can hum the song to yourself in your head, learn to play it on the guitar. Once you start depending on music written down, you're FU&*ED.

Same with chords, but, don't learn, the chords in the key written, learn the progression, and not necessarily as written, just strip it down to the fundamental chords.

that's great, if you have the brain space to learn 1000 tunes and to be able to play them at all 12 keys like the old Masters did. It doesn't seem like very many people do that anymore. In most every jazz show I ever go to, I see charts on the bandstand for all or almost all of the musicians. 50 years ago you didn't see that very often. And what are you gonna do when somebody calls a tune you've never heard? Sit out?

Being able to read is a fundamental skill that guitarists have excused themselves from decades. there's a quote, I don't know whether apocryphal or not, attributed to Herb Ellis. When asked if he was able to read music, he replied "yes, but not enough to screw up my playing." Oscar Peterson, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Joe Pass, Tommy Tedesco, Johnny Smith, etc., were all able to read fluently. Were they inferior, jazz, musicians as a result?

Yes, the guitar is a difficult instrument to read music on because the same note exists in 3-4-5, even 9 different places on the instrument. In the middle range of the guitar, there are typically four or five different places a line can be played; in one place it might be very easy and another place it might be nearly impossible. Part of reading on the instrument is learning how to figure out where to play it, as well as what to play. That's different from the piano, for example, where E above middle C only exists in one location. There is no ambiguity about where that note is going to be played. But on a guitar, I can play it open on the 1st string, at the 5th fret on the 2nd string, at the 9th fret on the third string, 14th fret on the fourth string, 17th fret on the 5th string, open harmonic at the 24th fret on the 6th string, artificial harmonic on the 24th fret on the sixth string, artificial harmonic on the 17th fret of the 5th string, artificial harmonic at the 14th fret on the 4th string. Might even be a couple of alternatives that I forgot. Nobody tells the beginning guitarist about these complexities, because we'd scare them off the instrument after the first lesson. As Miles Davis put it, "the guitar is a bitch, ain't it?" But if we don't develop that set of skills, and I'm speaking very much from personal experience here, we unnecessarily disadvantage and handicap ourselves in playing with others.

[Skip Ellis]

I've found that tunes that I've learned by ear, I can not only play more fluently, but can remember. I've found that after playing a theater production, reading a 70 page score, 8 shows a week for 8, 12 or more weeks, that after it's over, I can barely remember any of it because I was completely dependent on the written music. At the moment, I'm learning "Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Orleans" (Hirofumi Asaba version) and, although I have the lead sheet in front of me, I don't really refer to it unless I get stuck. If I'm arranging a chord melody, I have to, obviously, learn both the melody and harmony. For just playing straight tunes, I put together a BIAB backing track and play to it until I can get the melody right, then can worry about improvising (which I don't do much of). Once I get the melody right and under my fingers, I find it easy to play it in any key if the need should arise.

[ragman1]

Don't just struggle with the book, put on a recording of the tune and listen so that the notes on the page come alive. Vocal versions are usually the best for this because instrumentalists can become creative with melodies. But you should listen to them too to get some idea of how to play the tune non-robotically.

[jobabrinks]

If I already know the melody well (not necessarily to play it from memory, but to be able to hear it in my mind), I can see how it works on the page; when sight reading a song I've never heard before, it's impossible for me to even remotely sound like the actual melody. Reading familiar melodies is probably an easy place to start, but it's easy to rely on the inner ear and to not actually be reading the chart when you do that.

Correct.

I'm looking to supplement my knowledge of the tune with my knowledge of reading to be able to aggrandize the number of songs I can play with others.

I find I can do this easily with certain tunes, such as Blue Monk, but harder songs, it is harder.

With songs I haven't heard before, it doesn't work out well.

My reading is definitely better than it was, but I need to make another step.

[pawlowski6132]

that's great, if you have the brain space to learn 1000 tunes and to be able to play them at all 12 keys like the old Masters did. It doesn't seem like very many people do that anymore. In most every jazz show I ever go to, I see charts on the bandstand for all or almost all of the musicians. 50 years ago you didn't see that very often. And what are you gonna do when somebody calls a tune you've never heard? Sit out?

Funny, my experience is the EXACT opposite here. The guys that have to drag a book out are the laughing stock. Who asked you to learn 1000 tunes in all 12 keys; stupid. Nobody does that. Not to mention that most American Songbook songs are all the same. You learn a few and you've learned them all.

Being able to read is a fundamental skill that guitarists have excused themselves from decades.

That's bullshit.

Yes, the guitar is a difficult instrument to read music on because the same note exists in 3-4-5, even 10 different places on the instrument. In the middle range of the guitar, there are typically four or five different places a line can be played; in one place it might be very easy and another place it might be nearly impossible. Part of reading on the instrument is learning how to figure out where to play it, as well as what to play. That's different from the piano, for example, where E above middle C only exists in one location. There is no ambiguity about where that note is going to be played. But on a guitar, I can play it open on the 1st string, at the 5th fret on the 2nd string, at the 9th fret on the third string, 14th fret on the fourth string, 17th fret on the 5th string, open harmonic at the 24th fret on the 6th string, artificial harmonic on the 24th fret on the sixth string, artificial harmonic on the 17th fret of the 5th string, artificial harmonic at the 14th fret on the 4th string. Might even be a couple of alternatives that I forgot. Nobody tells the beginning guitarist about these complexities, because we'd scare them off the instrument after the first lesson. As Miles Davis put it, "the guitar is a bitch, ain't it?" But if we don't develop that set of skills, and I'm speaking very much from personal experience here, we unnecessarily disadvantage and handicap ourselves in playing with others.

What you just said there is completely irrelevant to learning to read music. If you see a note on the staff, play it wherever you want, who gives a shit where you decide to play it?? Are you a studio musician or just a jazz player playing gigs over standards?

If the latter, I assume you can just backup playing the progression and solo over the changes. That's all you need.

[pawlowski6132]

i've found that tunes that i've learned by ear, i can not only play more fluently, but can remember. I've found that after playing a theater production, reading a 70 page score, 8 shows a week for 8, 12 or more weeks, that after it's over, i can barely remember any of it because i was completely dependent on the written music. At the moment, i'm learning "do you know what it means to miss new orleans" (hirofumi asaba version) and, although i have the lead sheet in front of me, i don't really refer to it unless i get stuck. If i'm arranging a chord melody, i have to, obviously, learn both the melody and harmony. For just playing straight tunes, i put together a biab backing track and play to it until i can get the melody right, then can worry about improvising (which i don't do much of). Once i get the melody right and under my fingers, i find it easy to play it in any key if the need should arise.

exactly

[rpjazzguitar]

The RB has a range of difficulty. If we're talking about the old standards, it's a question of knowing the fingerboard and being able to recognize (or count, if you're quick enough), fairly simple rhythms.

My recommendation is to buy a copy of Rhythms Complete by Colin and Bower (which is inexpensive) and work through it, playing everything in two different octaves.

I think it may be more helpful than going right to the RB because it's graded in difficulty. The melodies are old fashioned swing, but I think they're fun to play. If you do it with a partner, it has chord symbols, so you can trade off.

It's a couple of months of work, give or take, and, when you're done, you'll be able to read standards in the RB.

[Mick-7]

"Part of reading on the instrument is learning how to figure out where to play it, as well as what to play."

That comes with practice, after a while you can scan a piece of music, see it's melodic/harmonic range, and intuit what position would be most suitable.

"Sit with the Real Book and pick an easy song, and sing the rhythms."

Yes, one thing that really helped me with this is a trick, a way to count rhythms, that I learned from a guy who studied with Ali Akbar Khan - I'll look for it. In Indian classical music, they use a solfeggio system to count polyrhythms. If you've ever heard a tabla player vocalize syllables such as "taka-takita," etc., that's what he's using.

[jobabrinks]

Sit with the Real Book and pick an easy song, and sing the rhythms.

Pitches are unimportant at this point...sing the harmonic rhythm. Rhythm is what hangs most people up, because they focus so much on pitch...

If you mean 1 and uh - 2 and uh and 1 e and uh 2 e and uh??

[Kirk Garrett]

If you mean 1 and uh - 2 and uh and 1 e and uh 2 e and uh??

I think he does mean that. I’d love to find a solid primer on how to read rhythms.

[ccroft]

To take sight reading to the next level it does help to study rhythm independent from pitch. There are several books that take you though it in increasing levels of difficulty. You gradually learn the ability to recognize 2 beat, 4 and longer rythmic phrases at a glance, which frees you up to look ahead and think about fingerings and positions. Like 'shave and a haircut... 2 bits'. Instead of reading each beat you see all 4 as one thing.

There are a lot of recurrent rythmic phrases in music.

The book RP is talking about might be about this. I was introduced to it by a classical friend who recommended Rhythmic Training by Robert Starer. That one is designed for working on it without having an instrument at hand, though you can do it that way too. I used to do it on the subway. There's some others that I've seen mentioned around here. Something by Bellson maybe?

[mr. beaumont]

If you mean 1 and uh - 2 and uh and 1 e and uh 2 e and uh??

I'm more of a "dwidily bop a du la bu la bop" kinda guy, but yeah.

[Bobby Timmons]

Generally you have to just practice the reading to get better at it. The non rhythmically intensive tunes in the Real Book aren't that hard. It isn't that big of a challenge to get to where you can play the song correctly by reading it if you kind of know how it goes already if you stick with it.

However in reading there are some tips that help. Isolate the rhythms and pitches. Practice singing or tapping the rhythms. Use the Real Book or anything else, books for rhythm or other sheet music. Practice identifying phrases - be able to sum up a phrase and have that help you figure out how it goes rather than just viewing it as a bunch of consecutive notes that you have to identify individually. Then practice finding the right position and fingering on the guitar to grab the phrases. One of my guitar teachers said identify the lowest and highest note in the song and map that out on the neck, sometimes you can play a whole tune in only 1 position. But if not, find out what positions you need to use.

[jobabrinks]

I'm more of a "dwidily bop a du la bu la bop" kinda guy, but yeah.

I do that.

I'm not sure how you can read period without counting it out. Perhaps I misunderstood.

[jobabrinks]

Generally you have to just practice the reading to get better at it. The non rhythmically intensive tunes in the Real Book aren't that hard. It isn't that big of a challenge to get to where you can play the song correctly by reading it if you kind of know how it goes already if you stick with it.

However in reading there are some tips that help. Isolate the rhythms and pitches. Practice singing or tapping the rhythms. Use the Real Book or anything else, books for rhythm or other sheet music. Practice identifying phrases - be able to sum up a phrase and have that help you figure out how it goes rather than just viewing it as a bunch of consecutive notes that you have to identify individually. Then practice finding the right position and fingering on the guitar to grab the phrases. One of my guitar teachers said identify the lowest and highest note in the song and map that out on the neck, sometimes you can play a whole tune in only 1 position. But if not, find out what positions you need to use.

Yea, there's a bunch of rhythms I see over and over.

The one that really gets me is the 4uh tieing into the next measure. It always gets me and I think it's because I'm concentrating on hitting the 4uh and I don't see the measure ahead.

But there's plenty other stuff I trainwreck on. I'm definitely better than I was. But still need work.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Yes. One other thing I forgot is memorize rhythms that throw you off or make mnemonics for them. So you immediately know how they go the next time you see them instead of having to figure them out from scratch.

[mr. beaumont]

I do that.

I'm not sure how you can read period without counting it out. Perhaps I misunderstood.

You do enough you can recognize things. But yeah, if it's tricky, count. But when I sing it, I don't sing numbers.

[pawlowski6132]

I think he does mean that. I’d love to find a solid primer on how to read rhythms.

What does that mean, read rhythms?

[Kirk Garrett]

What does that mean, read rhythms?

I take it that I should have said time or tempo. Counting, as mentioned above. The notes are easy to learn but I haven’t delved into decoding the cadence.


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