Bebop heads: Donna Lee

**Mick-7** · Today, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

So here's my mm1-14 played with the backing track at about 170. Still fumbling mm. 5-6 still but otherwise feeling pretty good about trying to advance the tempo a little more each day.

Making progress

What string gauge do you have there, 13's? Look pretty thick.

**mr. beaumont** · Today, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

I don’t like to learn the Parker/Davis takes by ear.

Trumpet/Alto in "unison" seems to be the toughest thing for my ears to pick out. Gets "smeary."

**lawson-stone** · Today, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Making progress

What string gauge do you have there, 13's? Look pretty thick.

All my archtops are strung with TI Jazz Swing 012 except for the ES175 which when I got it, I only had a set of TIJS 013 to put on it. But I've been on 012-052 for as long as I've played jazz.

**AllanAllen** · Today, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Trumpet/Alto in "unison" seems to be the toughest thing for my ears to pick out. Gets "smeary."

Smeary is a good way to describe it. That combo seems to have the most notes that aren’t on my guitar.

**grahambop** · Today, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Looks like Bird's first recording of the tune was in 1947 with Dizzy Gillespie and Lennie Tristano, I'd like to hear it!

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)

**GuyBoden** · Today, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)

That's a better version to my ears, note that Parker starts without the triplet.

**Christian Miller** · Today, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

I'm trying to cut down, lol.

Oh I spent time playing family of dominants into each other. I just disagree that it provides a good insight into the way, for example, the bars 15- 16 back to top of Donna Lee works. In those bars you get as characteristic and unambiguous 7-3 voice leading right on the bar lines as you'll find in any jazz recording and Bach composition. The analysis buries the 7-3 movements inside the scales over the bar lines.

Thanks, but one of the things I worked very hard on was to internalize the fretboard so I don't have to think of licks in a derivative way. I can orient any lick to the chord of the moment. You don't lose anything (except practice hours). You can play the same ideas but your organization match what you hear and the harmony. It becomes a practice habit. I know you are working on the intervallic view. Maybe you'll come to like this view at some point (however brief that moment might be).

Yeah I mean I do know the fretboard in the way you describe as well. I would consider it part of learning one’s instrument.

If it comes across sometimes like I'm being patronising, bear in mind it's because I have absolutely no idea how you play. The ability to talk eloquently online about music theory does not indicate to an ability to play - and vice versa. You may be an absolute beast or a rank beginner and I honestly don't know. So while I say, that doesn't mean I assume you're not a good player, it does mean that I don't really have much context for any of this.

On the other hand debating the value of the ideas of someone like Barry Harris seems.... A more or less complete waste of time. He knew more about this music than any of us could ever hope to, and some amazing students including many greats of jazz.

Doesn't mean it's right for you. Either you find it useful or you don't. But there's not much to debate there. (Although I can't imagine Barry would have recommended not learning how to construct all the chords etc on a given root note.) They are one of a number of things I have got a lot of use out of, and I recommend them.

For my own part, I have tried to explain why something like his approach to minor II V's might be useful and why one might want to practice that way. It took me a fair amount of time to get my head around it.

My analysis was an (old) attempt to reflect Barry’s way of teaching it. (Or maybe more accurately one aspect of Barry's teaching.) Not a lot more than that.

No analysis gives a complete picture.

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**Mick-7** · Today, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)

Oh, I see, he reduced the tempo for Miles sake.....

Billy Bauer: guitar - I bet he's glad he wasn't asked to solo on this!

**Christian Miller** · Today, 03:56 PM

Miles wrote it tho

**Mick-7** · Today, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Miles wrote it tho

The Charlie Parker Omnibook credits it to Charlie (?)

Oh, there's some controversy about it....

Authorship. "Donna Lee" was originally attributed to Charlie Parker on the original 78-rpm recordings and was copyrighted under his name in 1947. However, in various interviews and publications since, Miles Davis has claimed to be the composer.

Heck, nothing new about that, Miles claimed to have composed many other people's tunes! It was copyrighted by Parker!

**pamosmusic** · Today, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

The Charlie Parker Omnibook credits it to Charlie (?)

This is standard Donna Lee lore.

Miles probably wrote it.

Who knows why it ended up that way …

Charlie Parker was the big cheese at the time and miles wasn’t well known. People cared less about songwriting provenance at the time. Publishers were famously uninterested in properly crediting black musicians in particular. All of the above. None of the above.

Christian maybe knows more?

**Christian Miller** · Today, 04:08 PM

Well exhibit A is this known Miles composition of the same era

Which to me sounds much more like DL than any Parker composition I can think of. Maybe you can think of one?

I would say the heavy use of running scalar eighth notes is note something that shows up so much in Bird's heads... At least the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Miles talked about learning 'running style trumpet' when he was getting it together.

**Jimmy Smith** · Today, 04:23 PM

Why would Miles's word be taken? He was the jacker of all jackers. Read the wiki article:

Although Davis claimed being the author, noted composer, arranger Gil Evans in a radio interview on WKCR FM, NYC stated publicly that the true author of the piece was drummer Norman "Tiny" Khan who taught the melody to Davis who then taught it to Parker.

Donna Lee - Wikipedia

**Tal_175** · Today, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

If it comes across sometimes like I'm being patronising, bear in mind it's because I have absolutely no idea how you play.

That's OK, I've come to accept it as your internet voice.

**Christian Miller** · Today, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Why would Miles's word be taken? He was the jacker of all jackers. Read the wiki article:

Although Davis claimed being the author, noted composer, arranger Gil Evans in a radio interview on WKCR FM, NYC stated publicly that the true author of the piece was drummer Norman "Tiny" Khan who taught the melody to Davis who then taught it to Parker.

Donna Lee - Wikipedia

That sounds classic - miles stealing it off someone else then getting annoyed when he got it stolen.

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**grahambop** · Today, 04:52 PM

Before bebop there was rebop.

**Christian Miller** · Today, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Before bebop there was rebop.

The internet is a wonderful thing (sometimes)

Intriguingly different tho, this version.

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**lawson-stone** · Today, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

This is standard Donna Lee lore.

Miles probably wrote it.

Who knows why it ended up that way …

Charlie Parker was the big cheese at the time and miles wasn’t well known. People cared less about songwriting provenance at the time. Publishers were famously uninterested in properly crediting black musicians in particular. All of the above. None of the above.

Christian maybe knows more?

Not just lore. There is a quite careful analysis in a volume edited by Dave Oliphant called The Bebop Revolution in Words and Music. The chapter by Douglas Parker "'Donna Lee' and the Ironies of Bebop" makes a solid case, tracing the whole story and the musical lines of dependence, that Miles Davis composed the tune and even talks a bit about why Davis did not seem able to play his own composition very well. It's a very interesting read loaded with musical examples.