Well You Needn’t Changes

[ragman1]

Allan -

This is getting beyond stupid. Here's the friggin lead sheet. Turn on the Kenny Burrell version and play some shells over it. F7 - Gb7, etc. It fits. Fancy that. The bass plays the occasional C nat over the Gb7 because that's the b5. But he doesn't even do that every time. That's all.

Then play G7 -- Ab7 --- A7 Bb7 B7 Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 Gb7 over the bridge. Voila, it fits.

If you want the clip of me doing it over the recorded tune you can have it. It's not rocket science.

It's really not worth this absurd beard-scratching over one bleedin tune. Just get on with it. Nobody cares.

It's the soloing you need to worry about!

Attachment 108688

[AllanAllen]

Allan -

This is getting beyond stupid. Here's the friggin lead sheet. Turn on the Kenny Burrell version and play some shells over it. F7 - Gb7, etc. It fits. Fancy that. The bass plays the occasional C nat over the Gb7 because that's the b5. But he doesn't even do that every time. That's all.

The play G7 -- Ab7 --- A7 Bb7 B7 Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 Gb7 over the bridge. Voila, it fits.

If you want the clip of me doing it over the recorded tune you can have it. It's not rocket science.

It's really not worth this absurd beard-scratching over one bleedin tune. Just get on with it. Nobody cares.

It's the soloing you need to worry about!

Attachment 108688

I guess you missed the part where I was trying it by ear, and what I heard didn’t match the sheet. So I had questions. Mainly if what I heard (right or wrong) could be used anyway.

[pamosmusic]

If you want the clip of me doing it over the recorded tune you can have it. It's not rocket science.

Yes. At tempo?

[JazzPadd]

So... Allen ... No

The melody is different between the monk and miles versions'

I played the tune at two gigs last week.... and use different versions. They're both fun.

I usually use the Sher version. Which also shows the alternate bridge with a different melody, Monks version with 7th chords. should be Maj add 9.

Back in early 70's before the real book, or what would become the real book, we used the miles version. The newer Real book, is the last choice... LOL. It's like a mix of the two version.... and as djg said, the Monk version uses Dbmaj9 or Dbmaj. add 9 chords. And usually for last 4 bars of bridge... / Eb E /Eb D /Db C / B C/.

I mean you can use kenny's version, it's kind of a combined version of both. Maybe use a C7#9 instead of the -7b5

ireal sucks... LOL. It works if you use it as a memory aid. Generally you call with version up front.

And of course the 1st part of the melody in "A" also has different choices LOL.

Thanks for this video, which besides being a clear demonstration of the difference, has the Bill Frisell interview snippet at the end. Great stuff!

And it isn't only the chord changes that matter; the different melodies of the two versions is crucial, as you pointed out. I haven't seen the Sher version, but that sounds like a valuable chart if it includes the variants.

The RB that I still have from when I was a work-a-day musician in the 1980s is the "The Real Book 1978 Totally Revised Edition" (which on the cover says it's the 5th edition), published by The RealBook Press in Syosset, New York. I got that, IIRC, when I was studying with Mark Slifstein at the Westchester Conservatory of Music, who was using the Berklee materials. By the time the RB revisions came out, I had taken a long hiatus from music but kept that old RB (with the old volume 2) and was surprised decades later to find the RB was expanded and revised, with all copyrights. And, on top of that, the "Jazz Standard Bible," which we use in Japan and which was put together by the bassist Osamu Koichi (who studied at Berklee), uses the Miles Davis changes for "Well You Needn't." Interestingly, before the JSB most players here used the "Handbook of Jazz Standards" (put together by Shingo Ito, now OOP), and THAT book uses the Monk changes and melody!

Returning to Allen's original questions about Kenny Burrell's version of "Well You Needn't," thank you for your insights, that the KB version seems to be a combination of the previous versions, and that before the Real Books (old and new) standardized things, it was common to play "Well You Needn't" the Miles Davis way. It'd be interesting to reflect on how and why Kenny Burrell and others came to play the Miles version.

[ragman1]

I guess you missed the part where I was trying it by ear, and what I heard didn’t match the sheet. So I had questions. Mainly if what I heard (right or wrong) could be used anyway.

Then you played it wrong. They play the chords on that sheet except it's 7's not 6's. In any case, you can play it how you want, can't you? If you want to tritone it, do it. Frankly, life's a bit short for all that. It's just a tune.

PS. I forgot that Gb13 he sticks in at the end of the first A. Oh no, that's another 30 posts. I give up.

[pamosmusic]

Then you played it wrong. They play the chords on that sheet except it's 7's not 6's. In any case, you can play it how you want, can't you? If you want to tritone it, do it. Frankly, life's a bit short for all that. It's just a tune.

Ah bummer. I thought you were going to play the head.

[ragman1]

I know. And that's the wrong quote.

[pamosmusic]

I know. And that's the wrong quote.

No it's not. I just didn't really feel like it was necessary to include the thumbnail to your soundcloud file.

[ragman1]

Then no quote was necessary, was it? Haven't you got something better to do? Like show us how to play the tune? After all, you're a performance major or something.

This'll irritate a lot of people probably. I don't think much of Kenny's soloing. I think it's awkward and doesn't really fit. Didn't think much of the Miles one either, it's too slow.

This isn't bad. I think Coltrane had an effect on him.

[AllanAllen]

Then you played it wrong. They play the chords on that sheet except it's 7's not 6's. In any case, you can play it how you want, can't you? If you want to tritone it, do it. Frankly, life's a bit short for all that. It's just a tune.

PS. I forgot that Gb13 he sticks in at the end of the first A. Oh no, that's another 30 posts. I give up.

I’m trying to be something more than a guy strumming chords to a lead sheet. I can strum along to a lead sheet on stage and get a passable solo on a tune I’ve never heard, but it’s just bullshit that way.

I got my little group and I think working stuff out this way is going to help me. I’m 40, if I can get this sorted out a little more, I may have a few decades of fun playing out.

It’s true, I can play it how I want and I’ll probably just play the popular Miles Davis changes but know there are others.

And lastly, I would rather have 30 posts on an actual jazz tune than politics or whatever is going on in the colonoscopy thread now.

[AllanAllen]

Then no quote was necessary, was it? Haven't you got something better to do? Like show us how to play the tune? After all, you're a performance major or something.

This'll irritate a lot of people probably. I don't think much of Kenny's soloing. I think it's awkward and doesn't really fit. Didn't think much of the Miles one either, it's too slow.

This isn't bad. I think Coltrane had an effect on him.

I’m not irritated, that’s your opinion. You can like or not like anything. I like em all, mostly I like the head, which is why I’m learning it. And I’ve got my little group so I’ll have them play it. And we’ll have fun for 7 minutes on a gig.

[pamosmusic]

And lastly, I would rather have 30 posts on an actual jazz tune than politics or whatever is going on in the colonoscopy thread now.

Bless this place.

[ragman1]

I’m trying to be something more than a guy strumming chords to a lead sheet. I can strum along to a lead sheet on stage and get a passable solo on a tune I’ve never heard, but it’s just bullshit that way.

Absolutely, don't do it on stage, of course.

Lead sheets give you the chords and the tune, how you do it is up to you. All the pros start with some kind of lead sheet. They must do otherwise they wouldn't know what to play. It's not a question of mechanically following a bit of paper, you take the ingredients and produce a delectable dish :-)

I got my little group and I think working stuff out this way is going to help me. I’m 40, if I can get this sorted out a little more, I may have a few decades of fun playing out.

Well, to be honest, there's working out and there's working out. Be simple. If you've got the simple sorted out (which is not always the same as easy) then you can complicate it. But if you start with something a bit too clever where do you go then?

It's really not a difficult tune. It's not too fast and the chords aren't difficult. Like I say, worry about the soloing. That's what the crowd will hear.

It’s true, I can play it how I want and I’ll probably just play the popular Miles Davis changes but know there are others.

He plays it too slow for me and I don't know what his changes are. But I don't actually care. The normal chords are easy, no need to mess with them in my view. Don't assume easy chords means a sub-standard version, it definitely doesn't at all. It's how you play it.

And lastly, I would rather have 30 posts on an actual jazz tune than politics or whatever is going on in the colonoscopy thread now.

No argument from me there!

[ragman1]

I’ve got my little group so I’ll have them play it. And we’ll have fun for 7 minutes on a gig.

That sounds right to me. Positive and fun, I'll go for that

[pamosmusic]

He plays it too slow for me and I don't know what his changes are. But I don't actually care. The normal chords are easy, no need to mess with them in my view. Don't assume easy chords means a sub-standard version, it definitely doesn't at all. It's how you play it.

The Miles changes are the ones you posted. The original Monk ones are a tritone away from those at the bridge.

[ragman1]

Ah, I didn't know that. Well, they can be tritoned then. But I did the Burrell version because Allan said that was what he was interested in.

[pamosmusic]

Ah, I didn't know that. Well, they can be tritoned then. But I did the Burrell version because Allan said that was what he was interested in.

Yep. And Kenny Burrell is playing the Miles version, more or less.

It's almost like this thread wasn't beyond stupid at all.

[Ahz]

Do folks find this tune difficult to solo over? Monk says to just feel the melody and stomp your feet in time.
I personally like to work in the whole tone scale for extra Monkishness when playing WYN.

[ragman1]

Yep. And Kenny Burrell is playing the Miles version, more or less.

It's almost like this thread wasn't beyond stupid at all.

It wasn't at first but it spiralled out of control. Thanks to you it got sorted out at the beginning very quickly. But it got to the point where poor old Allan was saying he was confused and all he wanted was the Burrell version.

Anyway, let's hope he's okay now. It's the soloing that's the next obstacle. But even that's not very difficult. Most of the pro versions are quite melodic.

Personally, I'd treat that Gb7 as a #11 and put some wholetone stuff in as suggested above. That would give it that extra quirk.

[pamosmusic]

Do folks find this tune difficult to solo over? Monk says to just feel the melody and stomp your feet in time.
I personally like to work in the whole tone scale for extra Monkishness when playing WYN.

I always have.

Mostly it starts to feel really repetitive if you keep playing “F and then a half step up” so you have to get a little creative so that you can make interesting melodies over that super predictable bass motion.

The bridge is always tricky too, for the same reason. I usually play the changes for the first four and then C dim and C# dim stuff for the last four.

[Ukena]

All the pros start with some kind of lead sheet. They must do otherwise they wouldn't know what to play.

All the pros? That's quite an encompassing statement. Most of the professional jazz musicians I know started out learning pieces by ear.

I still prefer to listen to the original tune and learn it by ear. I wouldn't want to learn "So What" by listening to Jerry Garcia and Tony Rice, however much I enjoy the music of each one; I learned it by listening to Miles.

Similarly, I learned "Well You Needn't" by listening to a couple different recordings of Monk, on both of which the key is F, with the bridge in Db; the chords go up chromatically to F, then down to B, back up to C before returning to the chorus in F.

Here is an excellent transcription of what I hear when I listen to Monk's sextet recording.

[AllanAllen]

For now I solo by embellishing the melody, licks and arpeggios. I'm going to stick with that for a while. I know me, if I try to work on everything I'll be good at nothing.

[AllanAllen]

All the pros? That's quite an encompassing statement. Most of the professional jazz musicians I know started out learning pieces by ear.

I still prefer to listen to the original tune and learn it by ear. I wouldn't want to learn "So What" by listening to Jerry Garcia and Tony Rice, however much I enjoy the music of each one; I learned it by listening to Miles.

Similarly, I learned "Well You Needn't" by listening to a couple different recordings of Monk, on both of which the key is F, with the bridge in Db; the chords go up chromatically to F, then down to B, back up to C before returning to the chorus in F.

Here is an excellent transcription of what I hear when I listen to Monk's recordings.

Which take is this from? Septet, solo, a live thing? There's a few Monk recordings of this. I'd like to hear it while I try to read. I've learned how to read well enough to know I'm illiterate, so if I can listen and look at the page it helps.

[ragman1]

I wouldn't want to learn "So What" by listening to Jerry Garcia and Tony Rice

No, maybe not :-)

[pamosmusic]

For now I solo by embellishing the melody, licks and arpeggios. I'm going to stick with that for a while. I know me, if I try to work on everything I'll be good at nothing.

Out of curiosity, what does this mean for you?

Ive always found “embellishing the melody” to be something that is more complicated and challenging in practice than it sounds.