Songs to work on for technique and rhythm?

[Christian Miller]

Only insofar as they’re written down. Jazz tends not to have super super complex rhythms. Mostly eighth notes and then some triplet ornaments. The complexity is implied in the way the melodies are rendered. Charlie Parker was incredibly rhythmically sophisticated.

Anthropology is a great example. The first measure of that tune is just eighth notes but the accent pattern implies 3 over 4.

Au Privave is another classic example.

Thats characteristic of most jazz. Pretty simple underlying melodies, offset rhythmically by anticipation and delay, and with pretty complex patterns in the articulation.

Most Parker heads are 2-3 clave

Moose the Moose is one of the few that’s in 3-2

[Christian Miller]

This video is great by the way.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

This video is great by the way.

Seems like that's another YT channel of the guy in the second video in my first post above, Andrew Scott Potter. In that video he plays with his son. He lives in Brasil and and has learned from Ketu Candomble masters. I came across him in an older post here written under the name bonsritmos. Bons Ritmos is also the name of a third YT channel where he presents his own recordings.

The guy has more sock puppets than Mr Christian Miller LMAO.

[Christian Miller]

Seems like that's another YT channel of the guy in the second video in my first post above, Andrew Scott Potter. In that video he plays with his son. He lives in Brasil and and has learned from Ketu Candomble masters. I came across him in an older post here written under the name bonsritmos. Bons Ritmos is also the name of a third YT channel where he presents his own recordings.

The guy has more sock puppets than Mr Christian Miller LMAO.

NOBODY has more sock puppets than me baby. I AM THE INTERNET

[Bobby Timmons]

I AM THE INTERNET

Christian's manifesto.

[Christian Miller]

My sock puppets are rising up against me

[Mick Wright]

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. Trying to clarify the rhythm thing I would want to steal small interesting rhythmical fragments from tunes so I can incorporate them into my improvisation in general

Various Thelonious Monk tunes come to mind — there's a useful range of difficulty levels to choose from — 'Evidence' is a rhythmically challenging theme.

All the best
Mick W

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

My sock puppets are rising up against me

AI

[Reg]

yea... again don't mix technical skill practice with performance skill practice until you actually have technical skills.

Rhythm skills come from having technical skills, not memorization.

[pamosmusic]

yea... again don't mix technical skill practice with performance skill practice until you actually have technical skills.

I’m not clear what the distinction here is. Technique comes into play in performance. Performance dictates what technique is relevant. Again … not saying you shouldn’t practice scales. You’re just not offering a terribly compelling case against using bebop heads to work on technique. It’s something people have been doing for a long time and it works. It’s not really all that different (if it’s different at all) than learning a transcription.

Rhythm skills come from having technical skills, not memorization.

To put it bluntly, I think you’re missing the point here. The idea isn’t just “memorizing” a tune. It’s taking the parts of a technically challenging tune and using them as a means of increasing your practical facility on the instrument. It’s not a substitute for knowing your way around, but it’s enormously useful.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

yea... again don't mix technical skill practice with performance skill practice until you actually have technical skills.

Rhythm skills come from having technical skills, not memorization.

Rhythm skills come from being able to feel the rhythm first of all.

[rpjazzguitar]

If I knew where rhythm skills came from, I'd be on a plane heading there right now.

Why not consider it part of practice from your first 3 cowboy chord song?

[Reg]

What is the OP's point for working on technique and rhythmic skills?

Generally when you don't have good technique, by that I mean you can't play anywhere on the guitar you want and can use any number of fingerings etc.... depending on style or feel desired...

You'll develop lousy technique and hit walls when learning jazz tunes.

Rhythmic skills come from having the technique to subdivide and being able to create rhythmic patterns that repeat or imply repeat within longer spaces... in time. It starts with shorter space, like two bar rhythmic patterns that expand into four then eight etc.... Which eventually become skills to have rhythmic organization within FORM.

Learning tunes which are above your skill level are like learning to cliff dive, (into water) without knowing how to
swim or even knowing if the water is deep enough etc...

My point is you can do more damage than good.... develop lousy technique and hit all the standard performance walls, because you haven't developed the skills to play what you want etc...

As I said before... learning tunes is great and eventually playing tunes can be the point. But learning to play tunes poorly... generally teaches one to play poorly.

But having said that... please use the "learn bebop tunes" approach to develop desired skills and check back in after 6 months.

So Jazznylon, I checked out a vid you posted..... I dig the 10 string... looks cool.... Just for the record.... playing the head usually isn't the point of playing jazz or even what most guitarist do when playing jazz. I take it your new to jazz.... What are your goals? You are coming from a different style of playing.... You need to start with some basics.... I'm guessing your going to be playing solo most of the time, more in the classical tradition.

Skip the Bop thing.... start with standards. You need more standard jazz skills.

Get a rhythm app. Like Drumgenius for phones or even just a elect Piano drum samples. Play anything you know with that drum track.... metronome will work, but not much fun. Drum tracts are almost like actual playing with another player.... and ... in time.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe you are all my sock puppets ....

Am I alone in the universe? Is the forum the fever dream of a brain in a tank???

Did I invent jazz?

[pamosmusic]

As I said before... learning tunes is great and eventually playing tunes can be the point. But learning to play tunes poorly... generally teaches one to play poorly.

l mean I don't think anyone is advocating learning anything poorly. Because learning to play scales poorly also teaches one to play poorly. And frankly learning to play scales super well just ... teaches someone to play scales super well. Not much else. There are ways to navigate that stuff to make it musical and it's complicated. Tunes are an important part of it.

But having said that... please use the "learn bebop tunes" approach to develop desired skills and check back in after 6 months.

sigh

[Bobby Timmons]

My sock puppets are rising up against me

Maybe you are all my sock puppets ....

Am I alone in the universe? Is the forum the fever dream of a brain in a tank???

Did I invent jazz?

Ur uppity.

[Doug B]

Bebop heads bebop heads bebop heads bebop heads.

Anything Charlie Parker.

They’re also great for vocab down the line.

Try and learn them in a few positions. Having them in two octaves is extremely practical. The others won’t be as immediately practical, but great for chops and great for vocabulary later.

Might I suggest a book that I am using? It's called "Charlie Parker for Guitar by Mark Voelpel" 18 Parker tunes. It has heads and solos for each tune and is written for note reading, and tab with suggested fingering:

https://www.amazon.ca/Charlie-Parker...s%2C296&sr=8-1

[AllanAllen]

And frankly learning to play scales super well just ... teaches someone to play scales super well. Not much else.

As someone who learned to play scales very well, I will say this is not true at all. The scales became my roadmap and they simplified A LOT of things for me. If I want a sound I know where it is. Scale practice developed my ear more than suffering through learning by ear ever did. If you can't do this basic stuff then you're just making everything else harder for no reason.

[Bobby Timmons]

Oh yeah about building technique. Work different styles. Technique can be built in all ways of playing, not only more aggressive single line. Or maybe that's what you meant you wanted to specifically target.

Anyway what I work on to build technique as an organist is work swing in 2 and 4, waltz, bossa, walking ballad, slow ballad, funk, popular.

[pamosmusic]

As someone who learned to play scales very well, I will say this is not true at all. The scales became my roadmap and they simplified A LOT of things for me. If I want a sound I know where it is. Scale practice developed my ear more than suffering through learning by ear ever did. If you can't do this basic stuff then you're just making everything else harder for no reason.

Again I didn't say skip scales or whatever. But there are diminishing returns with scales.

I have this sheet in my practice binder with the title "Do You Really Know That Scale" and it's got probably four to five lifetimes worth of scale stuff a person could practice. Thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths, octaves, compound intervals, triads, inverted triads, quartals, inverted etc etc etc.

I've actually done a lot of that stuff and I don't use tons of it (though I do use some). My point is that––of course, of course, yes of course––you have to know scales and have them together. But there are a million degrees of together they can be. You can work on scales for a lifetime if you want. At some point (and I happen to think that point is pretty early), your musicianship might be better served by using those scales and such to start working on idiomatic, and appropriately challenging music. Say, Billie's Bounce.

The vocabulary in there comes from scales and uses the scales in a musical way. When I find a piece of vocabulary in a tune and I want to make it part of my playing ...... I transpose it through a scale. I was somewhat more capable of doing that because I'd spend just an absurd amount of time on my scales, but it was still hard when I first started doing it, because the language in it was not the same language that I was working through when I was just working on my scales. Seventh chords, yes. But was I pivoting the seventh chords? Was I playing enclosures or scalar thing leading into those arpeggios, etc etc? No. How would I even know to do that?

Answer: finding it in a tune and then doing it.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

In the first minutes of this (anyway great) interview Peter Bernstein speaks about what he learned from Ted Dunbar about scales and music.

[pamosmusic]

In the first minutes of this (anyway great) interview Peter Bernstein speaks about what he learned from Ted Dunbar about scales and music.

Incidentally Ted Dunbar is also where I got the Bebop Heads As Practice thing (by way of my guitar teacher who studied a bit with Dunbar).

Ted Dunbar's Bebop List article @ All About Jazz

[Christian Miller]

Ur uppity.

I definitely did not invent you

I can say with absolute certainty that you are indeed the human equivalent of Samuel Johnson’s rock.

thank you, that was a close call

[pamosmusic]

Maybe you are all my sock puppets ....

Am I alone in the universe? Is the forum the fever dream of a brain in a tank???

Did I invent jazz?

Christian is a Boltzmann Brain.

[Reg]

Has anyone check out Jazznylons playing? I did and is why I changed my suggestions as to what to work on. He's not really ready for bebop heads. Standards would be much more helpful... as I suggested.

Pamosmusic... Please post an example to show how bebop heads have helped your playing, musicianship and vocabulary. I think I saw a vid of you playing "Solar" .... is that it? Man... it's just you talk like your a bad ass jazz guitarist. Please tell me that wasn't you.