Question about a tune to play for an audition

[pamosmusic]

Exactly what constitutes "syncopation" is context dependent. From the perspective of a classical musician who defines 1 and 3 (in 4/4) as strong and 2 and 4 as weak beats, backbeats, shuffle, swing, and most of the beats found in jazz, blues, r&b, funk, latin, etc. are departures from "regular flow of rhythm". But within those genres, those beats _are_ the regular flow of rhythm, so it's problematic to call them syncopations.

Inclined to agree, in principle, but most people are using a pretty straightforward definition.

To your point here … a series of eighth notes in jazz wouldn’t be considered a syncopation, even if the swing feel makes them feel a bit like triplets. In large part because the time feel is idiomatic. Also because the subdivision isn’t strict. The video Never* sent mentions some contexts when the vibe is closer to a dotted eighth and sixteenth. You mentioned a moment ago that the eighth note tends to straighten at brighter tempos.

Funny. A term used in a nonstandard way generated some questions.

* I find it exceedingly confusing to refer to Never as “Never” … I keep reading things and being like … “what the heck” and then realizing they’re referring to the poster.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Exactly what constitutes "syncopation" is context dependent. From the perspective of a classical musician who defines 1 and 3 (in 4/4) as strong and 2 and 4 as weak beats, backbeats, shuffle, swing, and most of the beats found in jazz, blues, r&b, funk, latin, etc. are departures from "regular flow of rhythm". But within those genres, those beats _are_ the regular flow of rhythm, so it's problematic to call them syncopations.

I think the regular flow of rhythm refers only to timing. It's the regularity of the space between the principle beats in a bar, e.g. quarter note beats in 4/4. A dotted quarter and an eighth form an irregular beat pattern and two pairs of them in a 4/4 bar are an elemental shuffle. The degree of syncopation is determined by the difference in spacing between the played beats and the beats in the basic meter.

Playing a shuffle as dotted quarter - eighth - dotted quarter - eighth is less extreme than playing it as the first and third eighths in four consecutive triplets. In the latter, the second and fourth beats are displaced more from the 2 and 4 in the 4/4 pattern than they are in the former. The shuffle is more extreme or asymmetric, for lack of a better word.

I'm not as comfrotable with the "strong" vs "weak" beats concept because it depends on what you mean by those terms. It makes more sense in funk, where a lot of the strongest beats are the "ands" - and very few downbeats are accented. Here's a great example from Jon Cleary:

[pamosmusic]

I think in most situations you’re going to find that people understand a syncopation as playing the upbeat and skipping the downbeat. Can also carry over into strong and weak beats … like playing quarter half quarter … or into strong and weak parts of the beat … as in sixteenth, eighth, sixteenth. You could also imply syncopation by accenting some of the upbeats in a phrase rather than the downbeats. But skipping the down beat and hitting the up would be the typical understanding with pretty much every musician I know, jazz, classical or otherwise. Assuming they’ve heard the term in the first place, of course.

[AllanAllen]

I think in most situations you’re going to find that people understand a syncopation as playing the upbeat and skipping the downbeat. Can also carry over into strong and weak beats … like playing quarter half quarter … or into strong and weak parts of the beat … as in sixteenth, eighth, sixteenth. You could also imply syncopation by accenting some of the upbeats in a phrase rather than the downbeats. But skipping the down beat and hitting the up would be the typical understanding with pretty much every musician I know, jazz, classical or otherwise. Assuming they’ve heard the term in the first place, of course.

Let's use another example, are you talking about the stabs in the verse here? Hitting on the and?

[John A.]

I think the regular flow of rhythm refers only to timing. It's the regularity of the space between the principle beats in a bar, e.g. quarter note beats in 4/4. A dotted quarter and an eighth form an irregular beat pattern and two pairs of them in a 4/4 bar are an elemental shuffle. The degree of syncopation is determined by the difference in spacing between the played beats and the beats in the basic meter.

Every music theory discussion of syncopation I've ever encountered (including the the wikipedia article I think we're both cribbing from) talks about both spacing and stress as elements of syncopation, with stress being a vehicle for creating the sense of interruption of "normal" flow.

Playing a shuffle as dotted quarter - eighth - dotted quarter - eighth is less extreme than playing it as the first and third eighths in four consecutive triplets. In the latter, the second and fourth beats are displaced more from the 2 and 4 in the 4/4 pattern than they are in the former. The shuffle is more extreme or asymmetric, for lack of a better word.

I think of shuffle as a continuum between those two.

I'm not as comfrotable with the "strong" vs "weak" beats concept because it depends on what you mean by those terms. It makes more sense in funk, where a lot of the strongest beats are the "ands" - and very few downbeats are accented. Here's a great example from Jon Cleary:

That's my point -- because strong vs weak is context dependent, what specifically constitutes syncopation is too. in the theory classes I took in college, a backbeat was defined as an example of syncopation because the "normal" strong beats (in the conventions of classical theory/composition) are 1 and 3. But it's the normal pulse in all kinds of non-classical music, so it's problematic to call it syncopation without specifying the perspective from which the word is being used.

[pamosmusic]

Let's use another example, are you talking about the stabs in the verse here? Hitting on the and?

Yerp.

Also any statement of a melody in the jazz idiom will be riddled with syncopations.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Let's use another example, are you talking about the stabs in the verse here? Hitting on the and?

The shuffle in Pride and Joy is a shuffle with more extreme syncopation. Count it out as a 12/8 and the beat (as eighth notes in one bar) is 1 - 3 - 4 - 6 - 7 - 9 - 10 - 12. If you count it as a 4/4, it's almost the same as two pairs of dotted quarter notes followed by eighth notes. No note is hit exactly on the "and" in this rhythm. But the delay of the offbeats is slightly longer with a 12/8 feel (which is how SRV does it) than if it were played with a 4/4 feel.

Placing syncopated notes where they give the desired feel for a particular tune is an art. You can hit notes slightly ahead of the beat, right on it, or slightly behind it - it's not easy for most players, it's critical to defining your groove, and it's one of the things that make the best bands tighter than the rest. When the bass player is playing a shuffle as a 4/4 but the drummer is giving it a 12/8 feel and others are somewhere inbetween, the rhythm is smeared just enough to blunt the rhythmic edges.

[John A.]

Funny. A term used in a nonstandard way generated some questions.

The world turns out to be a lot less standardized than some of us think.

* I find it exceedingly confusing to refer to Never as “Never” … I keep reading things and being like … “what the heck” and then realizing they’re referring to the poster.

Sorry about that, from now on I'll just abbreviate his nickname by referring to him as "it".

[pamosmusic]

Sorry about that, from now on I'll just abbreviate his nickname by referring to him as "it".

That would help. Let’s try and make this … erm … standard.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Sorry about that, from now on I'll just abbreviate his nickname by referring to him as "it".

Or you could refer to me as David

[ragman1]

God, the analysis... I just copy the sound, man!

[pamosmusic]

Good example of syncopation in jazz might be the head to Four.

That rhythmic figure starts and ends on upbeats, sort of anticipating the measure coming after it.

When it moves up a fourth, Miles often embellishes with a turn which causes the hit to land on the downbeat (only the first time). It’s not syncopated, but the syncopation has become so ubiquitous that it feels almost awkward when he does it.

I think that’s what I’m not in love with the idea of it being identified with disruption, though I get what y’all are saying. In jazz syncopation is part of what causes the music to flow.

Rhythm is cool.

[John A.]

Let's use another example, are you talking about the stabs in the verse here? Hitting on the and?

Parenthetically, I've often heard that sort of exaggerated emphasis on upbeats referred to as "Texas Shuffle" (T-Bone Walker did it a lot).

[pamosmusic]

God, the analysis... I just copy the sound, man!

Hey man. It’s amazing what you can hear when you have a word for what you’re hearing. It’s like how you notice all the different parts of a flower or a tree or something when you start learning what makes them do what they do.

[John A.]

Or you could refer to me as David

But I thought Dave's not here, man.

[AllanAllen]

Parenthetically, I've often heard that sort of exaggerated emphasis on upbeats referred to as "Texas Shuffle" (T-Bone Walker did it a lot).

Thanks, I knew, KNEW there was a T Bone example but I couldn't find it. T Bone and SRV were both from Texas so that makes sense. Speaking of Texas, where's Dawgbone

[ragman1]

36C in Texas right now

[Christian Miller]

Only 5 degrees hotter than london then

[mr. beaumont]

Things I've never heard argued about at a blues jam:

1. The word syncopation

[John A.]

Things I've never heard argued about at a blues jam:

1. The word syncopation

Feh, what done they know about blues in Chicago?