Question about a tune to play for an audition

[pamosmusic]

This whole conversation is just hilarious to me.

Great point. Agree with you there.

[John A.]

Ah, now I'm picking up what you're putting down. I had told someone we were going to play a box blues, he didn't know what I meant so I showed him the bassline which he played fine, but then switched to copying the guitar stabs instead of playing bass. It made me rethink my expectations.

To be honest, neither do I and I've been playing the blues professionally for 60 years. I assume you mean a 12 bar shuffle over a "bass box" line that's a variant of the 4 notes 1-5-7b-8 and hope you will educate me if I'm wrong. I've never heard anyone call a tune that way.

Yeah, that's it. The guy who explained it to me called it a box blues, then I saw a video of Josh Smith presenting it as a Chicago Box Blues. So I figured it was standard. A shuffle is like Jimmy Reed, while a box blues is Before You Accuse Me the bassline is emphasized by the guitar.

Some of that terminology is new to me, too. I think it has mainly arisen in the youtube age (or maybe in the instructional VHS/DVD video age, which I also pre-date). When I started playing with bands and going to jams 40+ years ago I never heard terms like "bass box" or "quick four". Forms and devices were defined by songs ("play it like Green Onions [or "Crosscut Saw" etc.)

But I'm only partly talking about that. It's more that with blues, I think you're more likely to run into people whose level of musicianship and repertoire never really advanced past a pretty basic level. So you have a lower probability of polished performances at jam sessions, and a lower likelihood of people knowing some of the blues variants.

If I walk into a blues jam and call "Take Out Some Insurance" or "Trouble in Mind", odds are not everyone on the stand knows it. Or if I call a tune with jazz blues changes, I'll get some blank stares (I once had a guy start yelling at me and cursing me out for doing this).

At a jazz jam, sure, you can stump people with obscure tunes, or someone might not (for whatever reason) know something you'd think is pretty standard/obvious. But there's still a very large collection of songs and arrangements that almost every jazz player worldwide knows and can pull off convincingly, and I really don't think you run into that to the same extent with other forms. Or maybe the problem is I never pay blues players to rehearse [ducks].

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

A shuffle is like Jimmy Reed, while a box blues is Before You Accuse Me the bassline is emphasized by the guitar.

I really don't want to offend you, but that's absolutely preposterous. A shuffle is a rhythm pattern, and it is not specific to any instrument. The "bass box" is an abstract construct on a bass fingerboard that describes the 4 notes of a series of common bass line variants often used in a simple classic shuffle rhythm. This is the "box":

No one I know would have any idea what you mean by a "box blues". It is vague, it is not regional, and it is not standard in any way. You are correct - no one knows everything, even after 60 years. But you faulted someone for not knowing an obscure fact that you yourself do not understand, to wit: "I had told someone we were going to play a box blues, he didn't know what I meant." It means nothing, and virtually no one would know what you meant because you're using obscure terminology inappropriately. And you're ignoring the fact that there are several variants of the "box" bass line. Here are just 7 of them. While they're sometimes played on guitar in unison with the bass (or in lieu of a bass, if there is none in the band), they're meant to be played by the bass - not the guitar:



If you expect someone to know what you're talking about, at least be knowledgeable and specific enough to have a reasonable expectation of being understood. I respectfully suggest that you lighten up on others and make sure you know what you're talking about before berating them.

[AllanAllen]

Here you go Ragman. 40 seconds in.

I don’t know what else to tell you guys. I had to show it to one guy, but 50 other times everyone knew what I was talking about.

Who am I berating?

[ragman1]

Allan -

Okay, thanks for finding that. Josh Smith is talking about the guitar using single-note bass box patterns rather than only playing chords.

Let's leave out the guy who didn't know what you were talking about. You said there were 50 times everyone knew what you were saying. So do you mean 50 different people?

How many different players understood what you were saying? And presumably launched into the same kind of blues without a hitch?

[mr. beaumont]

I can't say I've ever heard that style called the box, but it makes perfect sense.

Actually, im not sure I've ever heard a name for it! I played with a guy once who told me to "play a bassline" while he played "country bass" (two feel)

Box is quite a bit easier to articulate.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I've got a good line to use (with variations). Gently swung. Move around for D7 and E7. Nice :-)

And now there are 8. BTW, this one is a classic boogie bass line played by many pianists with the left hand. And, as noted, it’s not just a shuffle - it’s often played straight and unsyncopated or as a light swing.

Actually, im not sure I've ever heard a name for it! I played with a guy once who told me to "play a bassline" while he played "country bass" (two feel). Box is quite a bit easier to articulate.

But if you’re not all playing the same bass line, it’s also rather cacophonic. And with so many possible bass lines, how’s a guy or gal supposed to know which one the leader wants when told only to play a “box blues”?

[ragman1]

this one is a classic boogie bass line played by many pianists with the left hand. And, as noted, it’s not just a shuffle - it’s often played straight and unsyncopated or as a light swing.

I know. Sorry, quite irrelevant to the present discussion but I just thought of it.

[pamosmusic]

I know. Sorry, quite irrelevant to the present discussion but I just thought of it.

Is it?

[ragman1]

Actually, it's not totally irrelevant, come to think of it. I used to do a regular blues gig once a week as a duo with a very good player. Basically I played lead, not that he couldn't too.

He played different kinds of styles and I'd sometimes use bass patterns as background or as a basis for a solo. With tunes that used your box shuffle (swung 8ths) you could slip in that pattern and it would sound pretty cool for a moment or two. That's what I remembered.

Looks like that notation didn't display. Others might want to see it so here it is again. Like you say, maybe Formula #8 :-)

[ragman1]

Is it?

It's not really relevant to Allan and his box blues.

[mr. beaumont]

And now there are 8. BTW, this one is a classic boogie bass line played by many pianists with the left hand. And, as noted, it’s not just a shuffle - it’s often played straight and unsyncopated or as a light swing.

But if you’re not all playing the same bass line, it’s also rather cacophonic. And with so many possible bass lines, how’s a guy or gal supposed to know which one the leader wants when told only to play a “box blues”?

Well, as in my situation, its understood the bass player plays a 2 feel or hangs on the root for that situation.

[AllanAllen]

Allan -

Okay, thanks for finding that. Josh Smith is talking about the guitar using single-note bass box patterns rather than only playing chords.

Let's leave out the guy who didn't know what you were talking about. You said there were 50 times everyone knew what you were saying. So do you mean 50 different people?

How many different players understood what you were saying? And presumably launched into the same kind of blues without a hitch?

Last year I went to blues jams 1-3 times a week, and I called "Little Red Rooster, as a box blues, with a quick four" almost every time and it didn't work with one guy. Maybe everyone else was quick enough to guess what I wanted, I really don't know. Like I said, a box blues

is different than a shuffle

There's been a few times when I call something and it goes sideways and I always talk to the host to see what I said wrong. For example, if you want to do something like Moneys Getting Cheaper you don't ask for a fast shuffle, you ask for a swing shuffle. Fast shuffle is Chuck Berry. Something about sliding into the chords makes the other guys speed up.

Does that help? I feel like I went off on a tangent, but I went through the trouble of getting those links so I'm going to post it.

[ragman1]

Allan - I don't know, obviously it's as you say. But it is true that we haven't heard of it here and if you google 'box blues' it comes up nil. Lots of stuff about boxes, of course, but not box blues as a style.

Anyway, does it matter. One miss out of 50, who's counting?

By the way, what is a box blues?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Last year I went to blues jams 1-3 times a week, and I called "Little Red Rooster, as a box blues, with a quick four" almost every time and it didn't work with one guy. Maybe everyone else was quick enough to guess what I wanted, I really don't know. Like I said, a box blues

is different than a shuffle

I gather you (like Wikipedia) think that Big Boss Man is a shuffle - but it’s not. A shuffle is a 4/4 rhythm in which each quarter note beat is an eighth note triplet in which only the first and third are played with a rest between them. You can also visualize it as a 12/8 in which the center eighth beat of each of the four 3 note clusters is a rest.

That tune by Taj, on the other hand, is a shuffle. The bass is playing one of the classic lines with notes in the box pattern.

I’m glad you’ve found a group of players with whom you’re happy. But if you all think that Jimmy Reed’s Big Boss Man is a shuffle, you’re in a world of your own.

[AllanAllen]

I gather you think that Big Boss Man is a shuffle - but it’s not. A shuffle is a 4/4 rhythm in which each quarter note beat is an eighth note triplet in which only the first and third are played with a rest between them. You can also visualize it as a 12/8 in which the center eighth beat of each of the four 3 note clusters is a rest.

That tune by Taj, on the other hand, is a shuffle. The bass is playing one of the classic lines with notes in the box pattern.

I’m glad you’ve found a group of players with whom you’re happy. But if you all think that Jimmy Reed’s Big Boss Man is a shuffle, you’re in a world of your own.

To me a box blues has the guitar doubling the bass line or doing chord stabs, exactly what the guitars are doing in the Taj song. It's like a specific type of shuffle.

You say Big Boss Man isn't a shuffle, so what is it? I always thought that guitar rhythm was synonymous with shuffle. The powerchord to power6th thing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

To me a box blues has the guitar doubling the bass line or doing chord stabs, exactly what the guitars are doing in the Taj song. It's like a specific type of shuffle.

You say Big Boss Man isn't a shuffle, so what is it? I always thought that guitar rhythm was synonymous with shuffle. The powerchord to power6th thing.

You’re conflating chords and rhythm. A shuffle is a rhythm - you can play any chords over it. And the rhythmic pattern plus chord style in Big Boss Man has a two beat feel with no syncopation at all. You’ll hear the same feel in tunes like Memphis. Listen to Chuck Berry’s version or Johnny Rivers’.

[pamosmusic]

You’re conflating chords and rhythm. A shuffle is a rhythm - you can play any chords over it. And the rhythmic pattern plus chord style in Big Boss Man has a two beat feel with no syncopation at all. You’ll hear the same feel in tunes like Memphis. Listen to Chuck Berry’s version or Johnny Rivers’.

How are you using syncopation here? Where are you looking for it?

[AllanAllen]

Allan - I don't know, obviously it's as you say. But it is true that we haven't heard of it here and if you google 'box blues' it comes up nil. Lots of stuff about boxes, of course, but not box blues as a style.

Anyway, does it matter. One miss out of 50, who's counting?

By the way, what is a box blues?

Maybe 50 people just guessed right and they're too polite to correct me after the fact. Jammers can be very weird and aggressive, I had someone pull out a knife to show me how much he disliked someone I said I was friends with. He didn't like my friend because my friend asked him to turn down once. So reflecting back, maybe they just let my mistake go uncorrected.

The Taj Mahal link would be the best example of a box blues to me.

[ragman1]

Got it. So when the guitar follows the bass pattern. Good idea. I liked the Taj Mahal

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Maybe this will help. It's a pretty simple explanation with examples. There's a good example of the difference between straight rhythm and shuffle rhythm at 7:05:

Here's another:

How are you using syncopation here? Where are you looking for it?

Syncopation is generally defined as "a disturbance or interruption of the regular flow of rhythm". The other common definition is this one (from Oxford) or similar: "the practice of displacing the beats or accents in music or a rhythm so that strong beats become weak and vice versa".

You shouldn't have to look for it - it's the rhythmic pulse of the tune. If you have to look for it, you don't know what it is.

[pamosmusic]

Oh you’re referring to the swung eighth note in the shuffle as a syncopation? I’ve always thought of that as a time-feel thing … like they’re just eighth notes with a lilt, and the triplet or sixteenth note subdivision is a way of illustrating it. So I wouldn’t necessarily call those syncopations.

I’m there now.

[John A.]

Maybe 50 people just guessed right and they're too polite to correct me after the fact. Jammers can be very weird and aggressive, I had someone pull out a knife to show me how much he disliked someone I said I was friends with. He didn't like my friend because my friend asked him to turn down once. So reflecting back, maybe they just let my mistake go uncorrected.

The Taj Mahal link would be the best example of a box blues to me.

Allen, Never is right. Shuffle is a rhythm, not a harmony part. That said, if you call a shuffle at a blues jam, a fair number of guitarists will play what you're calling a "Jimmy Reed" rhythm guitar pattern, and I think a fair number will think that the two always go together. But the pitch pattern is not what makes it a shuffle; the rhythm is. So, "Caress Me Baby" and "Bright Lights Big City" are shuffles. But "Big Boss Man" is not, though I don't know that I'd characterize BBM absolutely. The basic pulse is 1/4's, as opposed to the basic pulse of a shuffle being 1/8s (or triplets missing the middle beat), but the drums kind of hint at a shuffle here and there. A lot of this music is rhythmically trickier and more subtle that people often realize.

What you're calling a "blues box" is (as Never says) a "box pattern" bass and/or rhythm part played over a shuffle rhythm. Shuffle, like swing time, is highly variable, and the faster it gets the straighter the 1/8 notes feel. So a fast Chuck Berry tune like "Johnny B Good" or "Carol" is a shuffle, but not because of the guitar part. Even though the rhythm at tempo seems straight, if you slow a recording down, you can hear the shuffle clearly (and if you're playing it as straight 1/8s, you're playing it wrong).

A bunch of people may manage to play tunes the way you want them to based on how you're the terminology, but I would not assume others outside your circle would.

[John A.]

Maybe this will help. It's a pretty simple explanation with examples. There's a good example of the difference between straight rhythm and shuffle rhythm at 7:05:

Here's another:

Syncopation is generally defined as "a disturbance or interruption of the regular flow of rhythm". The other common definition is this one (from Oxford) or similar: "the practice of displacing the beats or accents in music or a rhythm so that strong beats become weak and vice versa".

Exactly what constitutes "syncopation" is context dependent. From the perspective of a classical musician who defines 1 and 3 (in 4/4) as strong and 2 and 4 as weak beats, backbeats, shuffle, swing, and most of the beats found in jazz, blues, r&b, funk, latin, etc. are departures from "regular flow of rhythm". But within those genres, those beats _are_ the regular flow of rhythm, so it's problematic to call them syncopations.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks the examples Never and John posted helped clear things up for me. To be honest I read that Bright Lights Big City was a shuffle and Big Boss Man wasn't and thought "that's the same feel" but when I listened to them back to back, the differences are clear. Which has me wondering how the thread would have gone if I picked that instead since I googled Jimmy Reed videos and picked the one I wanted to hear while I typed the comment, assuming they all had the same shuffle feel.