Question about a tune to play for an audition

[Christian Miller]

I’ve been with you on most things this, Christian. But on this I strongly disagree. A gig is a gig, and employers deserve a professional performance, no matter how simple or rudimentary.

Well, I kind of regard switching off and staring at a chart as less professional. If you are engaged, looking up and looking around, connecting with the other musicians and the audience members, this will create a better impression. A few funny chords here and there? They won’t hear it. People staring at iPads and phones? They WILL notice that

you are involved in a performance art.

I also think it makes for better music. Sometimes you have to be tidy, but not always. People don’t come to live music for perfection. They come for vibe, a feeling and an atmosphere.

You never know who’s listening to you. A few mistakes, wrong chords, or missed changes could mean being passed over for a gig. These days it could even lead to a critical social media post with a video clip if the clams were really foul.

I do think it depends who you are playing with. And what you are playing. But standards? You have to keep them fresh somehow, or you lose them and you’ll be staring at a chart for everything before you know it.

Some in the straightahead jazz community are super down on charts for standards. Somebody might be judging you for using a chart for a well known tune. Or playing Stella in Bb with an Em7b5 as the first chord. Or for having an F natural in the melody of Out of Nowhere over the E7 chord. Or for playing the diminished changes on It Could Happen to You (am I right Peter haha?)

You can’t win haha. You can’t escape judgement, you will be judged and all fear and worry will do is make it worse. That’s music for you haha. All you can hope is to receive a higher class of brutal appraisal if you do your practice.

Also you have to learn to separate things that bother you and things that bother other people. And learn to keep a good poker face.

If anyone needs a chord chart or lead sheet to reduce errors, use it. But be sure it’s correct and that the whole band is using the same changes etc.

I won’t judge others. But I prefer to use iReal only when I have to, and try to look away from it as soon as I can (after a chorus hopefully) so I can be engaged again. There’s a grey area where there a things I haven’t played in a minute, and stuff like that. This is I think quite normal among jazz players. You get good at covering up lapses as well haha. ‘I guess I’ll take a little solo on the bridge, then…’ street smarts.

The flipside is if you want to good at this you have to learn a lot of tunes, it makes winging tunes and remembering half forgotten tunes much easier.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I kind of regard switching off and staring at a chart as less professional. If you are engaged, looking up and looking around, connecting with the other musicians and the audience members, this will create a better impression. A few funny chords here and there? They won’t hear it. People staring at iPads and phones? They WILL notice that

you are involved in a performance art.

I also think it makes for better music. Sometimes you have to be tidy, but not always. People don’t come to live music for perfection. They come for vibe, a feeling and an atmosphere.



I do think it depends who you are playing with. And what you are playing. But standards? You have to keep them fresh somehow, or you lose them and you’ll be staring at a chart for everything before you know it.

Some in the straightahead jazz community are super down on charts for standards. Somebody might be judging you for using a chart for a well known tune. You can’t win haha. That’s music for you.

Also you have to learn to separate things that bother you and things that bother other people. And learn to keep a good poker face.



I won’t judge others. But I prefer to use iReal only when I have to, and try to look away from it as soon as I can (after a chorus hopefully) so I can be engaged again. There’s a grey area where there a things I haven’t played in a minute, and stuff like that. This is I think quite normal among jazz players. You get good at covering up lapses as well haha. ‘I guess I’ll take a little solo on the bridge, then…’ street smarts.

The flipside is if you want to good at this you have to learn a lot of tunes, it makes winging tunes and remembering half forgotten tunes much easier.

Yeah most of this is spot on.

It seems simple. Like “of course we’d rather have charts and have the tunes be right.” But there are always these little tag along effects. Like Christian mentions, people playing more tunes but tunes they don’t know well. Or people buried in the chart rather than engaged—which I would agree is unprofessional too.

Example. I’ve noticed that iReal being present on the band stand at a session leads to less cooperation on tunes. Most of the time it’s fine, but there’s also a tendency for some dude to come up and call his pet tune that he wants to shred on to impress everyone.

Me: Ah, man. I don’t know that one.
Him: it’s in the app.
Me: yeah, I still don’t know it though.**

Jam sessions often attract those couple people who think the entire session is there to be their backing band and the app tends to empower that mentality.

** I’ll totally use the book for something reasonable. Had a singer a few nights ago call Orange Colored Sky, which I read. Had a sax player come up a while back who wanted to make the high school bass player and whoever else play Sea Journey.

Its in the app.

Yeah, I still don’t know it though.

[Christian Miller]

I mean obviously it depends. Theatre musicians are great sight readers and often conditioned into avoiding risk at all costs for obvious reasons. obviously that can be in tension with making things spontaneous.

That’s a completely valid and appropriate mindset for that specific world but I would hope fundamental different mindset from a performing jazz musician. And the studio mindset for a jazz player would be different again.

Some can switch between these modes.

[Christian Miller]

Jam sessions often attract those couple people who think the entire session is there to be their backing band and the app tends to empower that mentality.

Haha yeah I know what you mean…

and it does end up being just that - a backing band…

it’s a bit like - you know how a big band piano solo with just the rhythm section is never the same musically as a jazz quartet?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I prefer to use iReal only when I have to, and try to look away from it as soon as I can

I think that’s what I’m saying. If you have to play a tune of which one or more players is uncertain, it’s better to use charts than it is to suffer multiple mistakes. I’m not sure why you’d “have” to play a tune you’re not completely comfortable with unless the bride’s mother is going to sing it - and for that kind of demand, you’d best have come prepared.

Charts and tablets are synonymous today. I don’t think audiences care if performers use either on gigs, except for formal concert settings. I keep a tablet on a music stand with 20+ fakebooks and iReal loaded on it, just in case I need it to remind me of a bridge or counterintuitive change in a tune I haven’t played or heard in a long time.

But standards? You have to keep them fresh somehow, or you lose them and you’ll be staring at a chart for everything before you know it.

I’m talking about using charts to refresh memory and get over a few rough spots (changes etc). If someone needs the whole chart to play a tune on any gig short of a studio session or similarly demanding setting, he or she probably shouldn’t be playing that tune. For me, keeping it fresh is all about using new or different rhythms, styles, harmonies, etc. I often ask bass players to do the head, and I’ll occasionally throw a spontaneously improvised fugal or contrapuntal section into a standard like ATTYA. A few weeks ago, I called The Chicken and Blue Bossa as medium straight ahead swing tunes. The band and the audience loved it. I put Corcovado on tomorrow night’s gig list as a swing tune and we’re doing All Blues in 4/4.

Most of us have played many hundreds of tunes hundreds of times by now. After 60+ years of gigging, I (and probably you and many others) know 1000+ well enough to play them straight through without a chart. But, for example, many tunes have similar bridges. More than once I’ve found myself starting the wrong one for a tune I hadn’t played in years. A fakebook keeps me from doing this - I just think of it as a reference book for fact checking.

[pamosmusic]

I think that’s what I’m saying. If you have to play a tune of which one or more players is uncertain, it’s better to use charts than it is to suffer multiple mistakes. I’m not sure why you’d “have” to play a tune you’re not completely comfortable with unless the bride’s mother is going to sing it - and for that kind of demand, you’d best have come prepared.

Charts and tablets are synonymous today. I don’t think audiences care if performers use either on gigs, except for formal concert settings. I keep a tablet on a music stand with 20+ fakebooks and iReal loaded on it, just in case I need it to remind me of a bridge or counterintuitive change in a tune I haven’t played or heard in a long time.

I don’t think the audience minds a tablet on the stand but a musician who’s staring at it is a bit of a drag.

[wintermoon]

I’m not sure why you’d “have” to play a tune you’re not completely comfortable with unless the bride’s mother is going to sing it

Hah!

[wintermoon]

I don’t think the audience minds a tablet on the stand but a musician who’s staring at it is a bit of a drag.

Probably not so much today as it used to be. Even some of the heavy hitters use charts. Sure it's nice to have a good amount of tunes memorized but nshsi is right imo, better to have a chart than someone in the band struggling and ruining a performance.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t think the audience minds a tablet on the stand but a musician who’s staring at it is a bit of a drag.

If you have to stare at it through the whole tune, you shouldn’t be playing that tune. And as I recall, every symphony orchestra in the world uses charts for every tune on every gig.

[pamosmusic]

If you have to stare at it through the whole tune, you shouldn’t be playing that tune.

Well, then. We agree on that one. That’s no fun.

[pamosmusic]

Probably not so much today as it used to be. Even some of the heavy hitters use charts.

Not sure who you mean here. A lot of guys are kind of militantly anti-real-book. Using charts for arrangements or something not being the same thing, of course.

Ive been scolded for playing a tune memorized because the dude could tell I’d learned it from the Real Book.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Ive been scolded for playing a tune memorized because the dude could tell I’d learned it from the Real Book.

Maybe that’s because there are so many errors and oversimplifications in most fakebooks. And learning a tune from a book is like learning anything else from a book - just memorizing what you see isn’t enough. Would you want the person who’s giving you CPR after your heart attack to be a novice trying to apply what he read in the book?

[pamosmusic]

Maybe that’s because there are so many errors and oversimplifications in most fakebooks…

Haha. Well … in those particular cases, you’d be right.

(Like Someone In Love and It Could Happen To You, if memory serves)

But both guys were also big on learning them by ear in general.

EDIT: it was Peter Bernstein and Brad Shepik respectively. I guess I could avoid mentioning the names, but I don’t think that would surprise anyone. They’re both very kind and patient people but also don’t pull any punches on that stuff. Even if the punches are rather tactfully delivered.

[rpjazzguitar]

Not that anybody asked, but I have some views on these topics.

1. It doesn't look good if everybody is reading. OTOH, if there's a singer or lead horn who isn't reading to be a focal point for the audience, then it looks okay.

2. I agree that it's better not to be reading. But, I'm not convinced that reading completely takes away one's ability to listen to the other players. If you're a good enough reader, it doesn't take that much of your brain. You can still play jazz. Maybe not as well, but I think it can get close. It's not the majority, but I know some top notch players who like having a chart in front of them.

Big band players read all the time. Can they really be expected to know all those arrangements -- every hit and every transitional chord? But, the bands sound good anyway.

3. Another point is that not everybody is really good at memorizing and retaining tunes -- or playing tunes in any key without difficulty. But, they can keep up if there are charts. Must everybody be a NYC quality "well rounded jazz player"?

4. Back in the day, maybe a musician might work multiple times each week playing standards by memory. Now, I think it's unusual, well, at least around here. Repetition makes it easier to learn and retain tunes. The scene has moved on from those days. Not that it doesn't exist at all, but it isn't what I see around me.

5. Full disclosure. I read pretty well for a guitar player but I'm not so good at memorization.

[pamosmusic]

Not that anybody asked, but I have some views on these topics.

1. It doesn't look good if everybody is reading. OTOH, if there's a singer or lead horn who isn't reading to be a focal point for the audience, then it looks okay.

2. I agree that it's better not to be reading. But, I'm not convinced that reading completely takes away one's ability to listen to the other players. If you're a good enough reader, it doesn't take that much of your brain. You can still play jazz. Maybe not as well, but I think it can get close. It's not the majority, but I know some top notch players who like having a chart in front of them.

Big band players read all the time. Can they really be expected to know all those arrangements -- every hit and every transitional chord? But, the bands sound good anyway.

3. Another point is that not everybody is really good at memorizing and retaining tunes -- or playing tunes in any key without difficulty. But, they can keep up if there are charts. Must everybody be a NYC quality "well rounded jazz player"?

4. Back in the day, maybe a musician might work multiple times each week playing standards by memory. Now, I think it's unusual, well, at least around here. Repetition makes it easier to learn and retain tunes. The scene has moved on from those days. Not that it doesn't exist at all, but it isn't what I see around me.

5. Full disclosure. I read pretty well for a guitar player but I'm not so good at memorization.

1. that sounds right.

2. completely? No. But definitely occupies some bandwidth. Guys who’ve been playing with regular big bands certainly don’t have everything memorized, but they’re not sight reading anymore either. Some middle ground. They’ve memorized the form and know those horn hits, etc. even if they’re still glancing at the music. I used to work the door at the Mingus Big Band monday night thing and they all had the books in front of them, but the charts were notoriously incomplete. Like … whole tunes and pages of tunes missing. Kind of funny.

3. and very true. Well-rounded, yes, but that’s different for everyone and different places and situations have different demands for sure.

4. also true.

5. I’m pretty good at memorizing but about as good a reader as you’d expect from a guitarist.

[James Haze]

I’m talking about any band that’s in it for the long haul and playing for paying audiences. I played with large musical organizations (multiple leaders, dozens of top sidemen, high paying society and commercial gigs) for years. I know the difference.

My current jazz group has a core trio (g,b,d) plus keys and tenor when needed. I’ve been gigging with the bass player for about 30 years, the drummer for 16, the tenor for 20 and the keyboard for at least 10. All of my subs have been friends and fellow sidemen in other bands (many from the above-mentioned organizations) for anywhere from 10 to 40 years. My trio has played a regular Thursday night gig at a local club since 2016 IIRC, and my blues band has played at least once a week for about 20 years. This week, I have jazz gigs Thursday, Friday and Saturday plus a blues brunch on Sunday.

There are many great players out there. I’m fine with someone I don’t know who has a good reputation with people I do know. But I wouldn’t make anyone a member of a band that carries my name without the effort I already described unless I’ve played with them and observed them on a gig.

I don’t ask them to rehearse. I expect folks to probably know Oleo (or some rhythm changes) and a couple ballads already. If not, I guess that’s on me for assuming.

Hey, I didn't mean to go sideways on anyone. It just really irks me when I hear about people disrespecting musicians by trying to get them to work for peanuts, like when you told me about you having to forgo taking any pay so that you could pay your band. That kind of crap really gets me upset. That kind of crap is utter disrespect of musicians, and I won't let my work be disrespected like that, and I don't like seeing any other artists being disrespected like that.So hey brothers, I'm on your side in this.

These people want to come out and be entertained, well then they need to make sure that the artists are getting paid. These fools are getting paid for their jobs, the venue is getting paid, they come out to be entertained because they enjoy the kind of music the artist is playing, then they need to make sure that the artists are being RESPECTED by being PAID, and PAID well. That's what I'm really concerned with here.

If we don't stand up as musicians and demand that respect, then who is going to do it for us? Our responsibility, is to put in the work before the gig to be excellent.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t think the audience minds a tablet on the stand but a musician who’s staring at it is a bit of a drag.

Well I know what I am like. I just stare at it. It can be a tune have played a million times, I’ll still stare at it and read it. That’s me.

I think it may be some sort of cognitive disfunction lol

[Christian Miller]

Would you want the person who’s giving you CPR after your heart attack to be a novice trying to apply what he read in the book?

as much as I value music I would term that an over dramatic analogy haha

i suppose a jazz scolding from a master can be painful tho. I’d count it more as a maiming.

[Christian Miller]

1. that sounds right.

2. completely? No. But definitely occupies some bandwidth. Guys who’ve been playing with regular big bands certainly don’t have everything memorized, but they’re not sight reading anymore either. Some middle ground. They’ve memorized the form and know those horn hits, etc. even if they’re still glancing at the music. I used to work the door at the Mingus Big Band monday night thing and they all had the books in front of them, but the charts were notoriously incomplete. Like … whole tunes and pages of tunes missing. Kind of funny.

3. and very true. Well-rounded, yes, but that’s different for everyone and different places and situations have different demands for sure.

4. also true.

5. I’m pretty good at memorizing but about as good a reader as you’d expect from a guitarist.

To be honest, if it wasn’t getting the point where I hadn’t basically memorised the guitar part of say, Shiny Stockings I’d be a bit of a schmo. That said I still need the bit of paper in front of me for …. Reasons? Not sure how any of this works.

That is hilarious about the Mingus big band and also completely unsurprising somehow.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

EDIT: it was Peter Bernstein and Brad Shepik respectively. I guess I could avoid mentioning the names, but I don’t think that would surprise anyone. They’re both very kind and patient people but also don’t pull any punches on that stuff. Even if the punches fall rather tactfully delivered.

First, having a big name and/or being a monster talent does not mean that you're always right. Learning by ear is certainly a critical skill for a jazz musician. But just memorizing a tune (whether from written chords and a melody or from someone else's recording of it) means nothing if you can't play it like you own it - you have to inject your personality and passion into playing a song. If you can't, it becomes either a sterile recitation from memory or a cover of someone else's take.

Second (and I don't know your playing at all, so this may not apply to you at all), playing a note perfect cover of a tune learned by ear is no more exciting for an audience, a player, or the rest of the band than rigidly and inexpressively playing chords and melody from a chart. Clinging to dogma almost always results in an imperfect outcome. Trying to "be" another musician by regurgitating his or her playing is just as sterile as coldly playing notes written on a staff. I can't help but wonder if being criticized for having learned a tune from a fakebook wasn't in some small part a criticism of the way the written music was translated into a performance, rather than errors in the fakebook.

There are many similarities between artistic creation and lovemaking. Many people apparently "learn" to make love from books. Applying that knowledge without taking the time and making the effort to develop the necessary sensitivity, caring, and concern for one's partner has been the theme of many books, movies, bad jokes, and divorce decrees. Then again, one can learn useful things about pleasing a partner by reading too. Playing only what you've memorized without at least a bit of your own personality and creativity is like kissing through a screen door.

[pamosmusic]

If you can't, it becomes either a sterile recitation from memory or a cover of someone else's take.

Right, but also if you can't trust your ear, it's pretty hard to bring any originality to the game.

I can't help but wonder if being criticized for having learned a tune from a fakebook wasn't in some small part a criticism of the way the written music was translated into a performance, rather than errors in the fakebook.

Well this is almost certainly true; thank you for reopening that wound. But also in those cases, incorrect fakebook too. Like Someone In Love does this weird descending bassline thing over an Ebmaj7 which is definitely not right. And It Could Happen does this ascending passing diminished thing in the A-section which is also definitely not correct, at least in the jazz idiom.

But again ... I also probably sucked.

EDIT: also those two particular dudes are pretty much always right, unfortunately.

[pamosmusic]

It just really irks me when I hear about people disrespecting musicians by trying to get them to work for peanuts, like when you told me about you having to forgo taking any pay so that you could pay your band.

The issue was not how much we were being paid, but rather how far out in Brooklyn I actually lived.

Try getting a bass player to lug his instrument out to the Verrazano Bridge on a Tuesday night and you'll know what I mean.

[rpjazzguitar]

Around here, there are a number of big bands. I play in two (plus a horn band on hiatus) and sub in two more occasionally. I'm a fan of yet another.

Every one of these bands has a core of regulars and plenty of subs. The band books are maybe 120 to 400 charts. At any given gig or rehearsal, there will be a number of players who have rarely played the charts. Possibly never.

And, the leaders/arrangers are always bringing in new material.

I know there are some regularly working big bands, but these are unicorns, aren't they? The economics are just too difficult.

Even if you know the tune, the big band arranger's job is to make it sound different from what you thought.

So, I'd guess that there is a lot of reading going on.

And, when I see other local bands play, I almost always see charts and players looking at them. Touring acts are different. Top players playing the same tunes in one city after another? They're likely to memorize the show.

[pamosmusic]

Around here, there are a number of big bands. I play in two (plus a horn band on hiatus) and sub in two more occasionally. I'm a fan of yet another.

Hot damn. That’s awesome.

[AllanAllen]

Huh?

I find it easy to communicate how to play tunes at a blues jam.