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  1. #1

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    That was interesting , all the different historical versions
    cultural appropriation stuff etc

    i wonder if you guys have a view on the first 12 bars of the B section
    (I'm talking Girl from Ipanima in F here)

    so so I agree with Adam that it sounds like
    a thing , then
    that thing up a min 3rd , then
    that thing up a semitone


    but I definitely do not hear it as keys as Adam states
    Db , then
    E , then
    F

    the F#maj7 is so strong
    it's got to be
    F#maj7 then
    Amaj7 then
    Bbmaj7

    also it's ambiguous with the relative minors
    Ebmin9 then
    F#min9 then
    Gmin9

    I mean .... It's ambiguous which is probably part of why it's so great
    I agree with Adam that its a genius tune
    how do you guys hear those bars I wonder ?

    Laters Taters

  4. #3

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    Video looks interesting, thanks

    I've posted this before but He's got some nice ways to voice the tune....


  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    That was interesting , all the different historical versions
    cultural appropriation stuff etc

    i wonder if you guys have a view on the first 12 bars of the B section
    (I'm talking Girl from Ipanima in F here)

    so so I agree with Adam that it sounds like
    a thing , then
    that thing up a min 3rd , then
    that thing up a semitone


    but I definitely do not hear it as keys as Adam states
    Db , then
    E , then
    F

    the F#maj7 is so strong
    it's got to be
    F#maj7 then
    Amaj7 then
    Bbmaj7

    also it's ambiguous with the relative minors
    Ebmin9 then
    F#min9 then
    Gmin9

    I mean .... It's ambiguous which is probably part of why it's so great
    I agree with Adam that its a genius tune
    how do you guys hear those bars I wonder ?

    Laters Taters
    I agree. His seeking a key from the melody is an error because a melody may be congruent to multiple keys. His claim for the Db, E, and F is genuinely absurd and the "American" version he derived sounds horrible and totally unlike the song.

    Yes, the B section starts with a pass through three pairs of chord harmonies:

    Gbmaj7 | B13
    Amaj7 | D13
    Bbmaj7 | Eb(13)

    or if you like the less pretty way

    Ebmin9 | B13
    Gbmin9 | D13
    Gmin9 | Eb(13)

    He makes a big deal of labeling the first chords of these pairs differently, but they are harmonically the same; the important difference to my ear is that treating them as major seventh harmonies sounds better for soloing no matter which way the bass or piano treats them.

    As a bit of an aside, there is something else going on here. I don't know the name of this thing so I will describe it and give it a name for now. This thing is basically how much and how long a musician hears a tune, its changes, etc. before interpreting something as a modulation, or a key change, or change in key center, tonal center, or whatever the lingo. I'll call it "key-span" for now.

    There are songs that stay in the same key throughout.

    Then there are songs that stay in the same key until they modulate to another key, so for example a song in F that later moves up one semi-tone. Generally, a modulation is considered a real move to a different harmonic basis structure, in effect a "re-set". But the original key is not necessarily gone. Imagine that at the end of the song the tonic chord is played and then as an ending the tonic is shifted back down a half step to the tonic of the original key. In that context, that last chord "recalls" the starting key and makes sense and sounds coherent in a way that simply half stepping the final tonic of a song that has no modulation up a half step would not. Even a real modulation still has "key-span" - its aural harmonic foot back in the original key.

    Some songs take the harmony out of the key for a little while but this is not necessarily justification for hearing it as in a different key. It isn't necessarily better to give it a name that suggests a change in key center or local tonic or whatever. A developed sense of "key-span" means hearing that not all chords need to be from the harmonized scale of the key.

    There are some musicians that seem to treat sections of chord changes as changes in key, or sometimes even single chords as a change in key. This is unfortunately understandable in a world where virtually all of music comprises a few chords of the harmonized scale and "key-span" has atrophied to the level that I imagine those with a hair trigger for attributing key changes must have quite the adventure when listening to classical music where their key change alarm might be set off every few measures, or even a few times within a single measure in the music of some composers.

  6. #5

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    Done as schlock it's the elevator music from Blues Brother. Done sensitively, however, it remains the exceptional chart that it is. Thanks for posting the analytical documentary of "Ipanema."

    The terrific bridge makes the song.

    My group consistently gets compliments on this chart.

  7. #6

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    A very different take on GFI/GDI.

  8. #7

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    Is Girl From Ipanema really the second most recorded song ever (after Summertime?).

  9. #8

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I agree. His seeking a key from the melody is an error because a melody may be congruent to multiple keys. His claim for the Db, E, and F is genuinely absurd and the "American" version he derived sounds horrible and totally unlike the song.
    thankyou Paul !
    I thought I was going a bit mad there ....

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    As a bit of an aside, there is something else going on here. I don't know the name of this thing so I will describe it and give it a name for now. This thing is basically how much and how long a musician hears a tune, its changes, etc. before interpreting something as a modulation, or a key change, or change in key center, tonal center, or whatever the lingo. I'll call it "key-span" for now.
    I like that name , yes

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Put it down a semitone and listen carefully. Is that C maj or F? The natural B of C maj sounds right, the Bb of the F scale doesn't. So it doesn't start in F, the F is a IV chord.

    i don't understand , sorry ragman
    why are we putting it down a semitone ?

  12. #11

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    I don't hear the bridge as in Db. I understand what he's saying, but I think he's stretching the model too far.

    I hear movement up a minor third. To my ear, the harmony sounds sort of like Ebm7 to Gbm7. Same chord a minor third up. And that happens in three keys. I understand that this is simultaneously and oversimplification and a distortion, but that's how it strikes me.

    Somehow, the first one doesn't feel like it needs to resolve. But, by the time you get to the third one, it clearly feels like it wants to resolve and the 36 25 fits perfectly. The movement up a minor third and then a half step creates a remarkable amount of tension, albeit very gently, and the resolution back to the original tonal center just feels great. I don't think that talking about those three major keys captures what is really going on.

    Beautifully written tune by one of the best composers in history, IMO.

  13. #12

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    agree Db E and F for the B makes no sense to me either, I guess if you handed the melody to a traditional theory 101 class those are the keys they would use, but then the A section melody notes are all 7ths and 9ths - might as well claim the A section is in C major, as that is the chord your theory 101 teacher would play on the first bar

    interesting the descending 3rd - 2nd diatonic sequence becomes ascending for the pattern for the keys Gb - A - Bb


    Nothing watered down on Baden Powell’s great 1964 arrangement - it is in F and uses the traditional Gbmaj7 F#-7 G-7 (Followed by the 7th/13th chord) for the B sec and there is no counter melody



  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Not really. It goes into Db, not Gb. The melody's in Db.



    (1)

    If you played:

    Db - % - Ebm7 - Ab7

    it fits. .
    Ragman, I'm a fan of your posts, but I'm going to disagree with this one. I don't think Db fits at all. And, the melody over the first chord of the bridge fits Gb just as well. Maybe it's I IV7 in three different keys, but I think that misses the build-up leading to the turnaround back to F.

    Edit: I want to make one point clearer. The turnaround back to F at the end of the bridge is dramatic. The earlier part of the bridge is all about building tension. Others have analyzed the chords divided into three sequences. I called it I IV7, but others have been more detailed and probably more penetrating.

    But, to me, the main point is how the tension is built with a statement, a b3 up and a half step up from that. I can't think of another tune which uses this device for tension and release.
    Is there any other tune, or any classical music, or anything, that does this? It's brilliant.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-19-2020 at 05:59 PM.

  15. #14
    I'm not qualified to wade in to the theory deep end with you olympic musical athletes but critically speaking, Jobim is unquestionably one of the greatest composers of the 20th century and GFI is a breathtakingly beautiful song and does not deserve the way it's used to represent kitsch or elevator music in the world of film and TV. This video's social implications regarding keys are interesting. I wonder if they really ring true culturally - both now and at the time the song was composed?
    Last edited by AndyV; 07-19-2020 at 01:43 PM.

  16. #15

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    hi Rag , i do understand your view
    but I disagree with you ....

    anyway , it’s great that people hear the changes differently .....
    different ears hear differently is all
    its cool .... and very interesting to me

    we all love the tune tho ....

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    I'm not qualified to wade in to the theory deep end with you olympic musical athletes but critically speaking, Jobim is unquestionably one of the greatest composers of the 20th century and GFI is a breathtakingly beautiful song and does not deserve the way it's used to represent kitsch or elevator music in the world of film and TV. This video's social implications regarding keys are interesting. I wonder if they really ring true culturally - both now and at the time the song was composed?
    the Baden Powell arrangement I posted above is in F and has none of the ‘authentic’ features discussed in the video, but it was done in 64, within two years of the first recording, and there is no one more authentically Brazilian than BP - so likely it was a later reaction after the song became associated with your dentist’s waiting room

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    agree Db E and F for the B makes no sense to me either, I guess if you handed the melody to a traditional theory 101 class those are the keys they would use, but then the A section melody notes are all 7ths and 9ths - might as well claim the A section is in C major, as that is the chord your theory 101 teacher would play on the first bar

    interesting the descending 3rd - 2nd diatonic sequence becomes ascending for the pattern for the keys Gb - A - Bb


    Nothing watered down on Baden Powell’s great 1964 arrangement - it is in F and uses the traditional Gbmaj7 F#-7 G-7 (Followed by the 7th/13th chord) for the B sec and there is no counter melody


    Thanks for posting! I hadn't heard that before.

    Here's a video of another player doing this arrangement. Helps to see how it's fingered.


  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    so likely it was a later reaction after the song became associated with your dentist’s waiting room
    If only my dentist would play Girl from Ipanema in the waiting room, instead of BBC Radio 1, or whatever crap it is.

  20. #19
    I always liked this remix. Basic II-V harmony in the bridge to my ears


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    If only my dentist would play Girl from Ipanema in the waiting room, instead of BBC Radio 1, or whatever crap it is.
    Offer them a tasty jazz CD, they won't know what hit them :-)

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    If only my dentist would play Girl from Ipanema in the waiting room, instead of BBC Radio 1, or whatever crap it is.
    but is a crappy version of a great song easier to listen to than a plain old crappy song?

    this version has the countermelody FWIW


  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Done as schlock it's the elevator music from Blues Brother. Done sensitively, however, it remains the exceptional chart that it is. Thanks for posting the analytical documentary of "Ipanema."

    The terrific bridge makes the song.

    My group consistently gets compliments on this chart.
    Haven't watched the video, but I have to agree with this. I can understand why people might roll their eyes at the song since it has been played to death. But I still like practicing it and listening to it.

    Here´s a somewhat Frisellian approach:



    Slightly related story time, in uni I played together with proper jazz cat guitarist who worshipped Rosenwinkel and had gone to music school for a few years. He was way better than I. We got a cocktail gig bundled together with a singer. We started playing Ipanema, and an exotic looking chick appears in front of me. She told me after the song that she was Brazilian and requested other Bossas like Desafinado etc. I took that as a sign that we did not completely butcher the song. Being an idiot, I never went up to her afterwards to continue the chat.. Lesson learned, kinda!

  24. #23

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    It's a shame that Neely's vid hasn't made a greater impression... however.

    I pulled out of the discussion about whether the tune actually modulates into Gb or if the GBM7 should be treated as Lydian because, let's face it, ultimately it's only about a one note difference for one bar so it probably doesn't matter that much.

    But I did this some time ago which might be worth posting. Although it details the scales used it's not a CST approach. The bridge chords are too diverse to be overlooked. You've got to know what notes to use or it won't sound right.

    I could have put the actual scales/modes in but I decided to call them by their chord references - so, for example, Eb Lyd Dom means Bb melodic minor. I usually play a sort of Bb melodic minor over C7b9 but I don't know what it's called in relation to C7. It's not F harmonic minor but it sounds good. And I used the Lydian (Db maj) for the GbM7 because I prefer the sound; to me, it's more tuneful than Gb maj.

    And the girl on the beach isn't some bimbo in a bikini because nobody'll bother with the music :-)

    Last edited by ragman1; 07-22-2020 at 11:17 AM.