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Here's my take on an old standard. Looking for comments, suggestions and perspectives. Thanks!
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03-17-2020 05:03 PM
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I really love the way you use the middle registers of the guitar, that baritone/low tenor range.
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Thank you Lawson. I was remarking earlier today that when I play high volume music I get way up the neck but when I'm playing jazz I prefer the middle/lower registers. There's a certain warmth to it for me. More personal somehow. Appreciate you!
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Hey man... sounded great. Could hear changes, nice melodic movement... lots of good stuff.
To get better... you need at least better overall shape. The improv sounded the same all the way through. Not a bad thing, but never goes any where. So just simply organizing the shape... the physical shape, have a beginning, some type of high point... or low point and then a wind down to the end. There are many more possible shapes, that's just a simple example. You can use all the usual BS, melodic, harmonic, rhythmic and articulations etc.
The flow of steady 8th notes with triple rhythmic figures to imply ? Anyway just improving your basic shape, say your going to take 2 or 3 choruses....physically understand the AABA form and how you want to use it.
Again... I liked your playing...but you asked for comments. Just trying to help.
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Hey Reg, Thanks so much for your insightful comments and perspectives. I agree with everything you said. In fairness to me, I'm at the point in my development where I've taken the training wheels off for the first time. So I have a tendency to keep pedaling just to stay upright. But as hard as I pedal I'm not going anywhere as you correctly point out. Kinda the same thing over and over sliced a little differently. Some of this is recording-phobic, just trying to get all the way through it without any major disasters. Your comments also emphasize the need to incorporate more rhythmic diversity. My soloing seems kind of repetitive in that regard. In closing, your observations are spot on and I appreciate you taking the time to share them with me! Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey like I said... it was great, I listened to whole thing. Keep posting... the more you post or record etc... the less each example becomes part of the whole. I'm old... have millions of recordings etc... some great and many that suck. MANY.... So keep developing, it's gets easy, and you'll begin to see and hear longer... Being in the moment things. I basically know by what I start with... tons of possible results and can work with them in real Time.
A pretty easy start is to have Targets.... specific locations where you want something to happen. Have a few licks or melodic ideas you want to develop in specific locations of the Tune. Then connect them, eventually you develop a bunch of different shapes of space that become internal, natural. Like how you remember directions how to get somewhere... eventually you know the map and you don't need directions.
Have fun, enjoy it.
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Thank you again. Seems as if the obvious "targets" are the turnarounds. I have more than a couple already pre-fabricated. I think the challenge in HYMMJ is that the bridge is a little tricky and doesn't allow me enough time to set up for them. That aside, your guidance is very helpful. Best to you! Originally Posted by Reg
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Very nice. I especially like the way you negotiated the bridge.
Since you asked for suggestions, here are a couple of things which occurred to me.
1. Maybe swing the melody a little harder, even if it means taking more liberties with the timing of the notes as written.
2. For the improv, perhaps consider playing more rests and longer rests. Doing so has the potential for making the lines stand out better. I like the extra space to appreciate what the rhythm section is doing under the solo.
3. Scat singing as I play has the effect of making the rhythmic content of my lines more variable. Maybe that would work for you.
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Here is a 10 year old example of tune I posted Have You meet... back when Fep (Frank) and I started the "Practical Standards" thread in the lessons section... Kind of humbling now, but you can see how I approached the tune... I never rehearse so it's rough, but you can see and hear how I have targets and how I develop ideas... which repeat etc... This was when I first joined JGF, pretty cool to see the early days on site.
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I may have a comment for you, but first let me ask, who are a few players you really like (any instrument).
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Thanks for that. The bridge is kinda tricky so getting through it without a major disaster was my goal. It sounds OK to me. Your other recommendations are well taken. I agree that my reading of the head could have been a little more organic. Also your recommendation to "breathe" during the soloing is spot on as well. Funny, my first influence on the guitar is Albert King, who's a master of "playing the rests." And I'm reminded of when I heard Alan Holdsworth in a small club in LA ages ago. His lines were so long that they were exhausting. I remember wishing he'd take a breath now and then. Lastly, your scat singing suggestion is quite helpful. When I scat sing my phrasing has much more rhythmic diversity. So I'll keep that awareness moving forward. Appreciate you! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Some of my favorites are Dexter Gordon, Hank Mobley, Trane, Art Pepper, Sonny Criss, Sonny Rollins, Sonny Stitt, Stan Getz, Gene Ammons, Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Bird, Stanley Turrentine etc. The few guitar players I listen to are Wes, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green and Jim Hall. I like Sal Salvador too. Originally Posted by corpse
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Listen to Dexter Gordon’s feel (he is one of best examples and my favorite time feel). It’s completely even 8th notes. You will swing more by keeping your upbeat essentially where you have it now, but push back the downbeats a little until you are closer to even. Originally Posted by buduranus2
Not straight eighths, even eighths. Your upbeat is still swung.
Get this down and rhythmic variety and you’ll level up for sure.
You’re on the right track. All good advice above.
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A very insightful analysis of Dexter Gordon's timing. I've noticed he plays comfortably "behind the beat" but your explanation clarifies what makes his rhythmic approach so unique. Originally Posted by corpse
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Think of it as a range where you can find your own sweet spot for the down beat (the upbeat stays locked in either way). You play one extreme, Dexter plays the other. Originally Posted by buduranus2
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To clarify, if you can swing in the style of DG, and you can play the other extreme already (ding dinga ding dinga ding) you’ll find your own. Or at least just consider pushing the beats back some because the swing feel now is lagging behind the rest of your development. imo of course
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Yea swinging details of by corpse are cool... there are many levels of swing. Macro and micro. And may different physical approaches... but getting back to the targets... you might have it backwards.... usually the trunarounds set up the targets. Right... if you think of tonal targets as ...what's defining what your playing.... The harmonic rhythm thing... The turnarounds are just part of how you setup and frame targets...
I mean you can expand, change, created different relationships with.... but the point is to imply, even if deceptive.
It's cool, and fun to harmonically or melodically organize weak side of harmonic rhythm harmony, I mean that's the standard physical place to musically stretch or expand changes and melodic implications etc...
You should make a vid of comping for HYMMJ.. See how you improve playing changes. All my gigs are cancelled for awhile... I'll jump in, etc... Might be fun.
Maybe corpse will also post...
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Very well put. Appreciate you! Originally Posted by corpse
Well that clarifies it. What I meant by conflating turnarounds with targets is that the turnarounds "set up and frame" the targets as you correctly point out. Many thanks! Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks for the nice reply. I'm glad that was helpful. Originally Posted by buduranus2
My all time favorite is Jim Hall, who weaves the silences into art.
I love Albert King's feeling. He's another master with completely unconventional technique. Upside down, backwards and bending notes further than you'd think it was possible. Albert Collins too, playing in a minor chord tuning with a capo way up the neck and sounding great. I digress.
I am in awe of players who can do long strings of rapid notes while making interesting harmony. I would probably do it (ad nauseum) if I could! But, for some reason, I never listen to something like that twice.
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I've seen John McLaughlin twice; once with the Mahavishnu Orchestra and quite some years later with another guitarist (Philip Catherine?) The number of notes I took home with me was zero. Same as when I saw Steve Vai (not really my cup of tea but we were comped in.) Incredibly challenging music that left me absolutely cold. You know, Holdsworth opened for Hendrix when he was in Soft Machine and, in a manner of speaking, played rings around Jimi. But, as we know, it isn't really about that. There's something closer to the essence of human existence in Jimi's playing. Albert Collins too for that matter. My two cents FWIW. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Yea I saw Jimi 3 times and got back stage etc... the drug fest years. Same with JM and always love Catherine... never really got in to Holdsworth... I'm old I remember The Soft Machine... and all the old bands. I don't remember Alan being in Soft machine... but I didn't follow them, I was already into jazz. (although played rock gigs all over, the social scene was much more fun... )
I'm just interested... at what tempo of notes does that turn off thing happen. Or is it a chord tone thing.
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It's not a tempo thing and not exactly a "chord tone" thing. If it's a "thing" at all I'd say it's a blues thing. Wes, Kenny Burrell, Trane and Dexter Gordon, for example, are all great blues players. (Interestingly Dexter Gordon didn't seem to record a lot of blues as a leader, although Watermelon Man with Herbie should establish his bona fides.) But, remember, Pat Martino is an incredible player and very funky in his own right. (Witness his playing with Willis "Gator" Jackson.) So, for me anyway, it winds up being able to convey a blues sensibility (Miles, Monk, Sonny Stitt, Bird, Sonny Criss etc ad infinitum) that marks the line between who I like and who I respect but doesn't reach me. Kinda like West Coast jazz. Originally Posted by Reg
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Back in the Keystone Korner days, I once had a front row seat for George Benson. His technique for blizzards of notes was astonishing. But, I left before the set was over -- and I've loved some of his records.
Sat right in front of the state for Metheny 80/81. He played a lot of notes too, although not like Benson. I stayed to the end and could have stayed longer. That was Paul Motian, Charlie Haden and iirc Dewey Redmon on that gig. Quite a band.
I've seen some video of Vic Juris, just tearing it up with a lot of notes, and I really liked it. He was a great player. I saw him live twice in the last few years and neither time did he blast a lot of notes. Sounded great. RIP -- he just passed. Other players with that kind of speed sometimes make me feel excited listening to them, and I'm glad I did, but I usually don't play the same track twice. Vic was an exception, I think because he was so melodic even at that speed.
So, for me, it's not tempo, or necessarily the number of notes. But, on average, I seem to gravitate to players who play fewer notes and make music where I can grasp melody more easily. So, Jim Hall is my all time fave, Paul Desmond on reeds, Miles or maybe Chet on trumpet. I admire Oscar Peterson, but I don't seek out his music. Just my taste, certainly not a lack of respect for what others do. Of course, I still wish I could do it.
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Thanks guys for your explanations of why and what you tend to like... pretty standard answers. I was just curious.
Good luck with your playing.
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I know, it's interesting :-) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I did lots of notes once. I used to play bluegrass fiddle tunes so you can imagine. As I've got older I think the essentials of the music have sort of distilled themselves into an essence, The brain has absorbed all the sounds and simplified them, if that makes sense. The brain's very good at that, I believe, and it's not limited to music by any means. It's why we can go to bed with a problem and wake up with the answer...
So nowadays I tend to play quite slowly and minimally because I find I get more out of it. I've never liked solos that sound too technical, I prefer some feeling. I find just a blast of impressive but wall-of-sound stuff leaves very little lasting impression. An impression of speed, perhaps, but not much else to hang on to.
It might be creeping old age but I'm not sure. I could still play fairly fast if I wanted to but there's no desire for it. I do occasional flurries instead! After all, most people agree that things only have any real impact when there's emotional content behind it... so that's probably it.
But there's a danger of boring the listener if it's too minimal, of course. Middle way is best, probably, as in most things.
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