Have You Met Miss Jones – looking for comments, suggestions

[pauln]

Lots of insightful advise in here, and I too hear a trail kind of repeating the same rhythms and riffs; it's all good but it lack big-picture organization.

I agree with the comments and interpret them generally as a too short or narrow focus, your constructive attention is too locally focused, need to break out of "the moment" (which you do nicely a couple of times!).

That is what I hear and read in the comments about shape and targets - these are what form the contours of a solo profile, the intelligibility of the story, the bigger non-local things, further ahead future things. This is why the blues was mentioned - all about musical story content, how it is told, how it grabs the listener.

[ragman1]

buduranus2 -

I thought it was quite good. But the obvious thing is that repeated triplet, isn't it? You're sort of over-egging the dish. Apart from that it swung along nicely. I recorded it and took out the triplets except for one or two which enhanced the solo. I think there were about 15 of them!

The other point is that it was all on the same sound level, right? So, because of that, there was an inevitable repetition of licks and notes. You weren't obviously playing the same solo three times over but a casual listener might be tempted to think so.

Personally I tend to go from low to high because it creates movement towards an end, like a good drama. I suppose. Shifting the position is a good idea, not just for the ear, but to get different takes on the notes. There was nothing wrong with your scales, etc.

I know how hard it is to do several solos in a row, don't think I don't. Once you're on that bronco it gets tricky. And the temptation is to plan it all carefully and then repeat... but that's death to improvising, of course, there's no freedom in it.

It's a hard thing we've set ourselves... anyway, don't listen to me, I'm just an old duffer :-)

[buduranus2]

Lots of insightful advise in here, and I too hear a trail kind of repeating the same rhythms and riffs; it's all good but it lack big-picture organization.

I agree with the comments and interpret them generally as a too short or narrow focus, your constructive attention is too locally focused, need to break out of "the moment" (which you do nicely a couple of times!).

That is what I hear and read in the comments about shape and targets - these are what form the contours of a solo profile, the intelligibility of the story, the bigger non-local things, further ahead future things. This is why the blues was mentioned - all about musical story content, how it is told, how it grabs the listener.

Yes, of course. It's great to have so many constructive comments and suggestions. I took a swing at it last night and found out how hard habits are to break. At the same time, I'm pretty clear on what elements I can add or emphasize. More motivic development, phrase length, rhythmic diversity and, generally, a more "vocal" approach. Thanks!

buduranus2 -

I thought it was quite good. But the obvious thing is that repeated triplet, isn't it? You're sort of over-egging the dish. Apart from that it swung along nicely. I recorded it and took out the triplets except for one or two which enhanced the solo. I think there were about 15 of them!

The other point is that it was all on the same sound level, right? So, because of that, there was an inevitable repetition of licks and notes. You weren't obviously playing the same solo three times over but a casual listener might be tempted to think so.

Personally I tend to go from low to high because it creates movement towards an end, like a good drama. I suppose. Shifting the position is a good idea, not just for the ear, but to get different takes on the notes. There was nothing wrong with your scales, etc.

I know how hard it is to do several solos in a row, don't think I don't. Once you're on that bronco it gets tricky. And the temptation is to plan it all carefully and then repeat... but that is death to improvising, of course, there's no freedom in it.

It's a hard thing we've set ourselves... anyway, don't listen to me, I'm just an old duffer :-)

Agreed. In fairness to me I've played jazz in a group situation exactly once, and not for lack of trying either. So my playing, in jazz at least, isn't informed by the interaction that's fundamental to the style. On this track I played it safe all the way through to get a decent clip to put up for comments. As I may have mentioned previously, I've been working on Everything Happens to Me and I find that I'm naturally adding the elements that many forum members have recommended. Anyhoo, thanks again for your kind words of encouragement!

[Max405]

Here is a 10 year old example of tune I posted Have You meet... back when Fep (Frank) and I started the "Practical Standards" thread in the lessons section... Kind of humbling now, but you can see how I approached the tune... I never rehearse so it's rough, but you can see and hear how I have targets and how I develop ideas... which repeat etc... This was when I first joined JGF, pretty cool to see the early days on site.

Reg, that’s incredible man. Really great stuff.

Bud, I love the sound you got there. Really nice too.

Joe D

[bengruven]

Very nice tone, feel, and lines!

Many people mentioned space - sometimes I think we get it into our heads that if we don’t address every chord, we are slackers. Consider letting some chords just go by.

I think playing with Band in a Box and iReal makes this uncomfortable, because if you stop playing lines, it just continues to pump out fairly boring backgrounds, while a real rhythm section would fill that space with something responsive and dynamic. These apps are great tools, but they don’t really simulate how real people react to a soloist. They also don’t build intensity and volume from chorus to chorus - so it’s very hard to build your solo over a one dimensional dynamic.

Changes in texture is also a nice option - double-stops, three-note voicing punches between lines, chord soloing - these all help flesh out the relative dynamic flatness of the clean electric guitar tone. Hundreds of Wes Montgomery solos follow the same process: single notes->octaves->chord melody, and no matter how many times he followed that format for chorus after chorus, it’s alway exciting because it builds intensity.

Enjoy the process!

[buduranus2]

Very nice tone, feel, and lines!

Many people mentioned space - sometimes I think we get it into our heads that if we don’t address every chord, we are slackers. Consider letting some chords just go by.

I think playing with Band in a Box and iReal makes this uncomfortable, because if you stop playing lines, it just continues to pump out fairly boring backgrounds, while a real rhythm section would fill that space with something responsive and dynamic. These apps are great tools, but they don’t really simulate how real people react to a soloist. They also don’t build intensity and volume from chorus to chorus - so it’s very hard to build your solo over a one dimensional dynamic.

Changes in texture is also a nice option - double-stops, three-note voicing punches between lines, chord soloing - these all help flesh out the relative dynamic flatness of the clean electric guitar tone. Hundreds of Wes Montgomery solos follow the same process: single notes->octaves->chord melody, and no many how times he followed that format for chorus after chorus, it’s alway exciting because it builds intensity.

Enjoy the process!

Aha, now I get it! The track is static so my playing is...static. Also, your observation that "if we don’t address every chord, we are slackers" is very insightful. For me, that feeling derives from an earlier point in my development when I had (more) difficulty with turnarounds. So I felt kind of inadequate. Now, I feel I need to play every turnaround just to demonstrate I can do it. As for your recommendations to add double stops and chords, I'm afraid I'm a single note guy. Maybe because my influences are primarily saxophone players. Lastly, your comments on how Wes constructs his solos is very insightful. I'm listening to Besame Mucho as I write. Appreciate you!

[ragman1]

Yes, of course. It's great to have so many constructive comments and suggestions. I took a swing at it last night and found out how hard habits are to break. At the same time, I'm pretty clear on what elements I can add or emphasize. More motivic development, phrase length, rhythmic diversity and, generally, a more "vocal" approach. Thanks!



Agreed. In fairness to me I've played jazz in a group situation exactly once, and not for lack of trying either. So my playing, in jazz at least, isn't informed by the interaction that's fundamental to the style. On this track I played it safe all the way through to get a decent clip to put up for comments. As I may have mentioned previously, I've been working on Everything Happens to Me and I find that I'm naturally adding the elements that many forum members have recommended. Anyhoo, thanks again for your kind words of encouragement!

Pleasure.

I haven't much doing at the moment so I just dashed this off. Happy to put my money where my mouth is...

I don't know this tune. I mean, I know it but I don't know it. I sight-read the melody and really just used the chords as a guide. The only changed sounds are a bit of b9 and alt over the C7's. And it's only two solos. I wouldn't have risked three, I don't think. And if I did it again it would be different. That's the point, I think.

It won't win any prizes but you can see how moving up is beneficial. If I criticised it myself objectively I didn't like the last Em7-A7, it sounded bland :-)

[bengruven]

As for your recommendations to add double stops and chords, I'm afraid I'm a single note guy. Maybe because my influences are primarily saxophone players.

I think I get where you’re coming from, but I ask you to consider a few things, especially the expressive differences between saxophone and guitar. Certainly there is a lot to be learned in terms of vocabulary and phrasing from saxophonists - who plays jazz on any instrument that isn’t influenced by sax players? But think about the things a saxophonist can easily do that you can’t do, or would be very difficult to do - the dynamic range of a wind instrument is much greater, the volume and pitch of each sustained note is very flexible (I alway laugh when I am reading a guitar chart that has two whole notes tied together with a crescendo on the second whole note!), the attack and tone quality of each note is highly variable. These are all very limited on guitar, especially clean electric guitar. So you get to play the lines - the pitches and rhythms - of Bird or Coltrane or Dexter, but you just won’t have their expressive range.

So adding some double stops and occasional three or four note chords is a way using some of the tools you have available as a guitarist that can bring variety and interest to your solos - I’m sure many horn players have wished they could play more than one note at a time!

Or look at it another way - could you imagine a jazz pianist who doesn’t play any chords in his solos - just single note lines - because he was influenced by sax players? I don’t think you’d hire that guy...

Just consider it - add a few double stops - put a pause here and there in your lines and interject a couple of chord voicings - you might find you like it, and it gives your listener something new to hear.

Here’s a bit of a short example from my favorite guitarist, Ed Bickert. In his solo on this blues (00:42), Ed puts a lot of space between his first phrases, later he adds a few chords punches in the spaces and plays some phrases with double stops - and then only at the end before the drum solo does he play a nice fully harmonized phrase. I think it’s delightful.

Again, as I said in my first response - you have really nice lines, tone and feel and you can just roll with that and sound great. But I suspect you put this video out for comment because you feel - like probably everyone here - that your playing needs something more, so why not take advantage of the unique qualities of the guitar?

all the best!

[buduranus2]

I think I get where you’re coming from, but I ask you to consider a few things, especially the expressive differences between saxophone and guitar. Certainly there is a lot to be learned in terms of vocabulary and phrasing from saxophonists - who plays jazz on any instrument that isn’t influenced by sax players? But think about the things a saxophonist can easily do that you can’t do, or would be very difficult to do - the dynamic range of a wind instrument is much greater, the volume and pitch of each sustained note is very flexible (I alway laugh when I am reading a guitar chart that has two whole notes tied together with a crescendo on the second whole note!), the attack and tone quality of each note is highly variable. These are all very limited on guitar, especially clean electric guitar. So you get to play the lines - the pitches and rhythms - of Bird or Coltrane or Dexter, but you just won’t have their expressive range.

So adding some double stops and occasional three or four note chords is a way using some of the tools you have available as a guitarist that can bring variety and interest to your solos - I’m sure many horn players have wished they could play more than one note at a time!

Or look at it another way - could you imagine a jazz pianist who doesn’t play any chords in his solos - just single note lines - because he was influenced by sax players? I don’t think you’d hire that guy...

Just consider it - add a few double stops - put a pause here and there in your lines and interject a couple of chord voicings - you might find you like it, and it gives your listener something new to hear.

Here’s a bit of a short example from my favorite guitarist, Ed Bickert. In his solo on this blues (00:42), Ed puts a lot of space between his first phrases, later he adds a few chords punches in the spaces and plays some phrases with double stops - and then only at the end before the drum solo does he play a nice fully harmonized phrase. I think it’s delightful.

Again, as I said in my first response - you have really nice lines, tone and feel and you can just roll with that and sound great. But I suspect you put this video out for comment because you feel - like probably everyone here - that your playing needs something more, so why not take advantage of the unique qualities of the guitar?

all the best!

I very much appreciate you taking the time to help bring me along. Your comments are very encouraging and well taken. And your observations about the differences in timbre and dynamic range between the guitar and saxophone are unassailable. Most definitely the reason I put this clip up for comment was to draw upon the individual and collective knowledge and experience (equals "wisdom") of the forum members. It's taken me three years to get my basic concept together and many forum members, including yourself, have been very complimentary and encouraging. So now it's time for me to take a breath and jump back in to see if I can build on my foundations. Thank you again!

[christianm77]

Accomplished work. You've really got the basics locked down great IMO.

Out of the comments here the one I find myself most agreeing with are Reg's. The solo doesn't really evolve. So that's the next step, I think. His comments are the ones I would make.

Feel wise... I don't mind this. I do think that triplet figure is a little repetitive, but I think more attention to the shape of the solo would help here. You could practice straightening out your 1/8s as corpse suggests, but I don't find your feel annoyingly bouncy...

And an important resource here is space, sure... Don't have the same density of notes all the way through.

Obvious parameters to explore to develop a solo
Fewer notes ---> more notes
Shorter phrases ---> longer phrases
Long gaps ---> shorter gaps
Lower ---> higher
Harmonically simple ----> harmonically complex/substituted
Single notes -----> chords
slow ----> fast
statement of melody ----> increasing embellishment

and so on

So another thing to try is starting each phrases on a different beat or upbeat.

First phrase on 1
Second on 1+
Third on 2
and so on

[rpjazzguitar]

I I alway laugh when I am reading a guitar chart that has two whole notes tied together with a crescendo on the second whole note!), t
all the best!

I can't recall seeing that written on a guitar chart, but it is possible to do something -- if you play with a volume pedal.

I recently saw Jeff Buenz play. Great player on bass and guitar. He uses a volume pedal a lot and makes swells in volume a part of his basic sound.

I always have my foot on my volume pedal and now I'm trying to do a little bit of what I heard him do.

[bengruven]

I can't recall seeing that written on a guitar chart, but it is possible to do something -- if you play with a volume pedal.

Excerpts from two big band charts I recently played:



The fortepiano (fp) is even more ridiculous than the crescendo/decrescendo. I think it’s just a copy/paste thing or an arranger who hasn’t really thought about the physics of a plucked string. It is useful to see it even if I can’t do it, because it makes me aware of what the horns are doing so I don’t spoil the effect.

I get your point about volume pedals and I’ve used them for years in fusion, pop, country groups, but I don’t think anyone is expecting a guitar player in a big band to use one for shaped dynamics. It’s not a problem, it’s just amusing to see, like when saxophonist arrangers write out impossible guitar chord voicings - it’s just funny and you learn to adapt and not make a big deal over it.

[buduranus2]

Accomplished work. You've really got the basics locked down great IMO.

Out of the comments here the one I find myself most agreeing with are Reg's. The solo doesn't really evolve. So that's the next step, I think. His comments are the ones I would make.

Feel wise... I don't mind this. I do think that triplet figure is a little repetitive, but I think more attention to the shape of the solo would help here. You could practice straightening out your 1/8s as corpse suggests, but I don't find your feel annoyingly bouncy...

And an important resource here is space, sure... Don't have the same density of notes all the way through.

Obvious parameters to explore to develop a solo
Fewer notes ---> more notes
Shorter phrases ---> longer phrases
Long gaps ---> shorter gaps
Lower ---> higher
Harmonically simple ----> harmonically complex/substituted
Single notes -----> chords
slow ----> fast
statement of melody ----> increasing embellishment

and so on

So another thing to try is starting each phrases on a different beat or upbeat.

First phrase on 1
Second on 1+
Third on 2
and so on

Hey Christian, Thanks so much for your kind words and encouragement. All your points are well taken. Your specific recommendations are quite clear and easy enough to implement. I see now that I can introduce more asymmetry and rhythmic/melodic contrast to keep things more organic. I forget where I heard it (possibly Rodney Jones) but someone recommended starting phrases on the upbeats as a means of introducing more syncopation. Your recommendations also remind be of an instructor who busted me for "playing to the bar lines." So, on this tune at least, guilty as charged. Anyhoo, I very much appreciate your encouragement and suggestions and look forward to working them into the mix!

[Reg]

Excerpts from two big band charts I recently played:



The fortepiano (fp) is even more ridiculous than the crescendo/decrescendo. I think it’s just a copy/paste thing or an arranger who hasn’t really thought about the physics of a plucked string. It is useful to see it even if I can’t do it, because it makes me aware of what the horns are doing so I don’t spoil the effect.

I get your point about volume pedals and I’ve used them for years in fusion, pop, country groups, but I don’t think anyone is expecting a guitar player in a big band to use one for shaped dynamics. It’s not a problem, it’s just amusing to see, like when saxophonist arrangers write out impossible guitar chord voicings - it’s just funny and you learn to adapt and not make a big deal over it.

Yea... I generally just play repeated single note tremolo with attacks to match dynamic. Man I've played most of Jaco charts... they're tough. Sounds like fun BB. That's... Used to be a ChaCha right.Who's arrangement.

[lawson-stone]

Here is a 10 year old example of tune I posted Have You meet... back when Fep (Frank) and I started the "Practical Standards" thread in the lessons section... Kind of humbling now, but you can see how I approached the tune... I never rehearse so it's rough, but you can see and hear how I have targets and how I develop ideas... which repeat etc... This was when I first joined JGF, pretty cool to see the early days on site.

That's wonderful playing. I so like knowing that some of the folks on the forum giving advice can also really play. Increasingly, as I struggle to improve, I only want advice from people who can play. Thanks for posting that!

[buduranus2]

I so like knowing that some of the folks on the forum giving advice can also really play. Increasingly, as I struggle to improve, I only want advice from people who can play.

Let me offer a different perspective. Last year I met a guy with encyclopedic knowledge of chords and applied theory. It was fascinating and humbling that it was all so second nature to him. I picked his brain for as long as I could before I hit the saturation point. Before he left he said let's play a tune and suggested All of Me. Pretty easy in the overall scheme of things. When it came time for him to solo he was very hit and miss, mostly miss. Then he handed it off to me and his eyes got big as saucers. And I just kind of do the basic thing like in my OP. He left slump-shouldered but I reached out to him shortly thereafter to ask if I could study with him. For whatever reason he demurred. So I would ask you to reconsider only wanting to learn from those who can play. For myself, I'm just looking for the knowledge wherever I can find it. Best to you!

[corpse]

That’s an interesting conversation. I think there’s good players that offer advice in a “take it or leave it” way. Going out of the way to record lesson videos like Reg for free is extremely above and beyond. I personally doubt I will ever post a lesson or music video just because it takes time and there’s nothing in it for me.

[Reg]

Hey Lawson, thanks for the kind words....really. I do get frustrated sometimes, for as corpse said... it does take time. Not so much the playing part... I generally just play, I'm not worried about getting examples perfect.. but the posting and loading parts sometimes drives me crazy... But I am from the school that someone teaching something should be able to cover. At least to the point of being able to play Live etc... Jazz isn't from the memorize tradition (PO).

The other side is it's fun to hear all the BS... much better than the news.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=bengruven;1017675]Excerpts from two big band charts I recently played:



The fortepiano (fp) is even more ridiculous than the crescendo/decrescendo. I think it’s just a copy/paste thing or an arranger who hasn’t really thought about the physics of a plucked string. It is useful to see it even if I can’t do it, because it makes me aware of what the horns are doing so I don’t spoil the effect.

I get your point about volume pedals and I’ve used them for years in fusion, pop, country groups, but I don’t think anyone is expecting a guitar player in a big band to use one for shaped dynamics. It’s not a problem, it’s just amusing to see, like when saxophonist arrangers write out impossible guitar chord voicings - it’s just funny and you learn to adapt and not make a big deal over it.[/QUOTE

If I've seen that before, it didn't register.

I doubt that it would occur to me, on first reading, to swell the volume. Maybe if I was voiced with the horns and they were doing it? Maybe.

Most likely, the arranger just left it in from the conductor's score, or something like that, as you mentioned.

[Reg]

So no takers for working on comping... no problems. (Use to be a Cha Cha), So Bud or OP I listened again... still cool. But I was trying to understand what you mean by Blues. Did you work with those Uncle Willie Thomas licks, I couldn't put my finger on it, but that #9 3 5 13 1 lick you use to start most of your lines reminds me of his approach. It's cool... but is that what you hear as Blues like. Anyway... I'll post some different approaches for playing same tune somewhere...

[buduranus2]

So no takers for working on comping... no problems. (Use to be a Cha Cha), So Bud or OP I listened again... still cool. But I was trying to understand what you mean by Blues. Did you work with those Uncle Willie Thomas licks, I couldn't put my finger on it, but that #9 3 5 13 1 lick you use to start most of your lines reminds me of his approach. It's cool... but is that what you hear as Blues like. Anyway... I'll post some different approaches for playing same tune somewhere...

Well, to me, blues is a particular resonance, a certain tonality or sonority that's immediately identifiable. Like the difference between Lee Morgan and Shorty Rogers. So, for me, even if the structure isn't a blues, my playing is still informed by the blues. The blues has its own "emotional logic." John McLaughlin doesn't have it but Kenny Burrell unquestionably does. The blues has certain linguistic elements that we recognize even if we can't articulate them in words. The difference between being "correct" and being "right." We can learn to speak a foreign language "correctly" but to a native speaker it isn't "right." I'd say that blues lines are the strongest and if we use those as a foundation and embellish them with the harmonic elements of jazz we're in the game. That's my recipe FWIW.

[Reg]

So it's just... feel. I like your line... Informed by the Blues. I wrote a tune years ago called... "In Search of Blue"
It was for the sax player....

[buduranus2]

So it's just... feel. I like your line... Informed by the Blues. I wrote a tune years ago called... "In Search of Blue"
It was for the sax player....

Wow. That was very atmospheric. Just the right ambiance for this moment (early evening post sunset). The sax reminded me of John Klemmer, who I haven't thought about since forever. Listening to Touch right now.

[greveost]

LOL, by coincidence, I just happened to jam on Miss jones as well the other day Hope you don't mind me posting, btw, if you want me to remove it, I can do it.

Playing my (very inexpensive) Harley Benton hb 35

[mr. beaumont]

Observations...

Overall, you're totally on the right track

You play the head stiff and on top of the beat/almost ahead? Then when you solo, you totally relax and groove.

You mine the same territory over the A a bit too much...I think you handle the bridge quite well,but after, instead of heading somewhere new, you go back.

Overall I enjoyed your playing, good groove, nice tone, good phrasing. I look forward to hearing more.