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Don't you think the greats do it all though? I bet PB has played a shitload of ii v licks, all the tunes, is out playing all the time, on tour, hanging with the greatest players (just saw him in Baltimore with Jimmy Cobb, both of whom killed it).
Originally Posted by christianm77
I just think the dicotomy of do this or do that is probably not an issue because I imagine the guy does or did practice constantly for a long period of time.
Not this or that but this and that and also this and this and this.
But also, I don't know very many tunes and it's my #1ish problem.
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01-24-2020 11:09 PM
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Pretty sure if anyone practices 6 or so hours a day in a focused way for about a decade, they will be pro. It's just that few have the desire to do so, or the means to do it. Also it totally effs your life in a way. Originally Posted by sgosnell
I started heavy practicing about 2 years ago and have cut out a lot of things I really like doing to do it. It seems ludicrous, at 44, but I was just frustrated with what I could do with music. I'm about 1800 hours of practice since then and definitely can do stuff now that I couldn't before. Progress is slow but steady in a way. Still frustrated but I think I always will be.
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200 is average
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I don't think 200 is all that many. Not that it's easy to learn 200 songs.
I think the guys who can confidently go into any situation without reading probably know 400 or 500 and can grasp the others quickly enough that you might not realize they didn't know the tune - well, unless they're the only chord instrument or have to play a melody they don't actually know. I've seen bassists do it. Fake their way through the first chorus by playing behind the beat on the one and then have the whole thing nailed by the second chorus.
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yes of course. It’s not an either or though. 2 5 1 licks are no bad thing and Pete knows plenty. But you don’t just play exercises. You get into applying them on tunes as soon as possible. Originally Posted by sully75
tunes provide a framework for all this stuff, a context for it.
but here’s another thing - if you learn the melodies to tunes and you are going to find a lot of useful devices including 2 5 1 licks.
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You can know all the songs, play at a pro level, but if you don't move to a location with lots of jazz opportunities, you will never get the chance to make use of all your hard work. Like learning to ski, and living in Florida.
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Thank you for this, it's very meaningful to me. I enjoy taking a tune apart and putting it back together, exploring and internalizing it, then forgetting it and coming back to it, and playing it with different people in different contexts, in different styles, as a solo, with a group, as bossa, swing, etc. A sax player called Misty as a funk number at a jam session the other night, and another time modulated Softly, as in a... down a half step to B minor for the last A section, then back up to Cm for the top, etc. etc. I call Out of nowhere a lot, but it seemed to be getting stale until Jonathan Kreisberg's version renewed it for me. A handful of tunes goes quite far, when I look at them in this way. Originally Posted by 44lombard
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So Peter Bernstein says learn all the standards while Scott Henderson says the standards are corny. This typifies the divide between the standards aficionados and those that have a more modern - post Shorter / Coltrane - bag. Peeps will identify with one camp or another, it's all good. I just wanna say that there are a bus load of great tunes that came out of the Hardbop era that falls in between the GASB era and the post 60's modern thing.
Her'es just a few (there are 100's of others just as great IMO):
HARD BOP STANDARDS
A
B
C
D
I
J
L
M
N
O
S
W
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Maybe this is an appropriate thread for a trip report.
A couple of months ago I heard Robert Glasper at the Blue Note in NYC. Acoustic trio and a fourth person "playing" laptop computer. He triggered sounds and spoken word clips. He was great, really creating a mood.
They played for over an hour. For the most part, I couldn't tell when one song ended and another began or if they were playing songs at all. I couldn't tell, for the most part, what was spontaneous and what was rehearsed. But, they created an intense mood and the music was terrific.
He played a few snatches of classic jazz piano, which sounded great. But I'm talking about maybe 30 seconds total in the show, included as if to prove that he had those chops (and he does). At one point, I thought I heard Stella. After a minute or so, it became clearer, but it was as if he was just quoting from Stella while doing something larger. He never played the head in anything like the usual way. The band then soloed on it, but only on an 8 bar section near the end of the tune (the descending m7b5's in whole steps).
I came away thinking I had witnessed the future.
My guess is that Robert Glasper has a command of older jazz styles, including standards. But, he isn't going to pack the Blue Note (and he was doing a 52 show, month long residency) playing standards in the usual way.
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I have gigged with Bruce Forman and Howard Alden. Those cats know thousands of tunes and can learn a new one just by hearing it once. And with all that skill, most people in any Country of the world have no idea of who they are.
We are all born with differing levels of musical talent that dictates just how far we will go in the learning tunes department. Some will be musical geniuses like Bruce and Howard. Others will never be able to remember any tunes. Most of us will be somewhere in the middle.
I know hundreds of tunes. Some I know inside out, I can play them in any key, know the melodies and the changes and can improvise well on them and can even play them in chord melody. Others, I may only know the changes to them in a particular key and can barely improvise on them. But over the years, I have developed my ear so that I can learn a new tune (assuming it is not very complex) just by hearing it for a chorus or two in real time on the bandstand. Sometimes, I am hired to be a sideman with cats that I have never played with (all professional jazz musicians) and my skill set in both learning and knowing tunes assures that I will not sound like I do not belong with the rest of the cats on the bandstand. Getting to this level took a lot of hard work (and perhaps the luck of being born with greater than average musical talent). I have noticed that with the exception of musical geniuses like Bruce and Howard, most cats (myself included) use the iReal program on our phones to help on the unfamiliar tunes.
Learn tunes and put in the hard work. The reward is that you will play better and get to play with better players.
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yeah, whatever the points I’m trying to make are are: Originally Posted by princeplanet
- college lists that you may or may not bother with are one thing, the bandstand is another
- not learn GASB standards is no excuse for not leaning tunes.
- the bandstand of Scott Henderson was not the same as Peter Bernstein. Both players did what they needed to thrive in their environment
- now *%%# off out of it and learn some @&&*ing tunes you actually like and play some €$<$ing gigs.
- if there’s no gigs move somewhere where there is
(problem with top40 gigs is many bands are obsessed with playing just like the record, so you can’t learn to express. OTOH half of jazz players seem to do the same where I am...
‘Look I can play just like Barney Kessel’
Great. I don’t care.)
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Before I get strawmanned into extinction obviously learning to play like, say, Barney is not nothing. If you hear someone in their early 20s say doing that you know they are on my way. Varady had that shit down when he was 13. So context is important. But for a fully formed pro to be content to do this, I think is turning jazz into museum music. And the repertoire can be part of that fossilisation.
(the bop guys didn’t play the New Orleans rep... they might have referenced it, but...)
what I respect about the NYC musicians like Bernstein but also the more modern straightahead guys is there is such primacy given to having your own take on it. Peter has found his own individual voice within the straightahead jazz firmament and everyone knows it.
there’s a huge gulf between this and simply playing like your favourite records which often seems to be the straightahead scene here in the UK.
OTOH some of the best musicians I know can’t get through a standards gig without the book. They are still great and usually they get calls because they are great readers.
Another guy I know just plays everything by ear so it doesn’t matter. He does a lot of big pop gigs, but is a great jazz player too.
you have to be able to do something. As Moreno puts it there’s plenty of players out there who think they can make a career out of Stella by Starlight.....
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is a social/cultural thing in NYC: no one uses fake books on a bandstand. There is huge social pressure against pulling out a fake book. In areas I've lived where this isn't true, a lot of people use fake books, even when they know the tune, they like to have it open (maybe as a crutch or safety net). But it just isn't done in NYC, and therefore, everyone tends to have tunes memorized and/or be able to hear tunes very quickly. Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm wondering when/if this will go away because there are very few "standards" gigs in NYC.
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sure. It’s rife in London (outside the people who mostly seem intent on recreating the past) And then we moan about how straightahead jazz is crap in the UK lol. People don’t commit to it. Originally Posted by pcsanwald
(I get the feeling in NYC people commit to whatever they’re doing with a terminal intensity even if it’s something completely laughable and there’s no way you can imagine them earning a living...)
its all about the ‘situated learning environment’ of NYC, to use the technical term. But every working jazz player knows in their bones what that means even if they don’t know the educational jargon....
And a lot of it is the elders schooling you.... letting you know what’s cool and what isn’t. And letting you know it’s not true to the music to not find your own take on it all, after a hard apprenticeship...
there’s a yearning in my heart that I know this has not been my story and won’t be. European jazz has its own vibe, but here in the Uk we are kind of torn....
but yeah I wonder how long it will last. Maybe it’s good that it changes. Everything has to change, or it dies.
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The lists of the top 10 or 50 "tunes you must know" rarely have anything newer than 50 years old.
Can anyone point me to a list of the top 50 (or some number) tunes a jazz player should know that are newer than that?
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Try getting through a pro playing career without learning at least some Stevie, Beatles, MJ and prob a bit of Bruno Mars and Mark Ronson.
it doesn’t matter how much of a jazzer you think you are
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If one is going to practice like that the intent had better be to become a professional musician. Otherwise they are not going to be able to hold down a job and support themself, maintain relationships with friends, partners, etc. They're going to be locked in a room woodshedding seven days a week. Dedication can convert into obsession which may have a negative affect on one's mental health.* Originally Posted by sully75
In practical terms, I think that kind of shedding is probably only necessary at a foundational level for a relatively short period of time, dependent on how fast one learns, plus occasionally for something specific. Once that stuff is under the fingers, it's possible to move to higher order of musical learning. Simply listening to music with attention will be educational at that point.
* over the years I have spoken with several highly dedicated jazz musicians who were quite depressed. The fundamental issue was that they had put in thousands of hours developing their skills and yet were unable to pay rent on the income they could earn as jazz musicians. This is not new; it was a problem in the 20s and 30s during the golden age of jazz (of which there have been a number of golden ages). Music and art in general are very difficult ways to make a living.
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This is a very salient post
im lucky because I’m actually interested in education
i earned a living playing for a few years but the travel is a drag after a while...also didn’t like the music I was doing enough to make the sacrifices. Did learn a few hundred prewar standards though...
3 or 4 sets, no charts, no breaks between tunes. Half of time learning the tune on the gig. Great apprenticeship!
but you know I don’t want to sound like I’m moaning. Things are great.
i just do the gigs I want to now...Last edited by christianm77; 01-25-2020 at 04:28 PM.
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In the early 70's I sat in with David Freisen a few times at his jazz coffeehouse in Portland Or. I was really into Silent Way. He told me 'you guitar guys really seem to dig that modal stuff. If you want to be a jazz player you need to learn a standard a day for a year.' Originally Posted by christianm77
I thought to myself 'Why would I want to play anything standard? I'm going new places'. (young lion that I was)
50 years later I'm learning maybe one a month or so. Kinda wished I'd listened to him in hind sight.
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or you could have learned every fusion and rock tune. And that would have had as much value. Originally Posted by ccroft
good musicians deal with music. That’s the real takeaway for me.
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yeah and there are some great players who are amateurs and players who do it for a bit and can’t be bothered with the grind of it. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Yes you do need to be good.... but you also have to put up with the BS, turn up on time, not be a dick and get on well with people, be organised, learn tunes, book gigs, drive long distances, deal with airport check ins with an instrument, organise rehearsals, operate computers, write emails, deal with paper work, run social media, edit videos, design and maintain a website, update your gig listings, run more social media, get people along to those bloody local gigs, book flights because your band thought you were doing it, book a van, deal with endless incessant questions from your band, organise meals, book hotels and explain to the promoter why the drummers late.
cos you are doing all of this esp if you have your own band. Somebody does not do this for you.
sometimes you get to play your instrument.
it’s a complicated skill set. Some people are super talented at the playing, but some are super talented at explaining why the drummer’s late. No really. It all keeps the thing going.
Plus, you know, most people teach as well. It’s a complex business.
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Very true. I was gigging mostly originals in 70's and 80's. Now I'm retired and living in a small western town where if you want to jam with some decent jazz players you need to know the old tunes. It's the only language they all speak. Around here you can't be called a jazz musician without 'em, and I just played Autumn Leaves for the very first time about 8 months ago. Originally Posted by christianm77
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The guys I know that work the most, their business savvy mostly transcends their mediocre musical skills. Originally Posted by christianm77
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ha I know some guys like that. The best of them know this about themselves. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I could never have been a professional musician, or even a good jazz musician. I'm not interested in the job, too many material and relational difficulties. The world of musicians does not attract me, too much dishonest competition, too many men (not enough women). And I'm not interested in pedagogy either, or at least I wouldn't want to be a teacher. I am not interested in the art trade, whether in painting, literature or music. I made a living differently, and I never sold my artwork
When I take the guitar, to play or compose, there is 100% music, no others problems. I know it's stupid, I have virtually no audience, but I don't care
So I have a lot of respect for the vast majority of jazz musicians. They are proletarians of music. In movies, commercials... you never see their name written, while all the technicians are on the credits. It's theft! and lack of the most basic respect. To live, most are forced to play music they don't necessarily like: where is the pleasure of creation?
How many standards do I know? Maybe 50. It's really not enough. In France, I don't see the reason to play only American tunes, but jazz musicians do mostly thatLast edited by Patlotch; 01-26-2020 at 07:23 AM.
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