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  1. #1

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    Hey there,

    this is Mike from Germany, I'm new to this Community.

    I have played a little Jazz every once in a while but now want to start to take things a little more seriously and have a shot on more complex Standards then what i used to play up until now ( Autumn Leaves, All of Me etc..)

    I tried All The Thing You Are today and it is pretty clear to me what's happening except for 2 Chords where i ask for you help.

    1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

    I understand that the Eb is a common Tone and if you put it as the top Voice it kind of holds the 2 Chords together but is there a functioning connection between the two?

    2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

    I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?

    Can the whole passag really be viewed in Ab tonality-wise? Because that's where you come from and go, except for those 2 Chords? (C-7 beeing a III of Abmajor)


    thank you very much in advance for helping me out on this one. My concern is not so much what to play over it, since i get by with chord tones and using small Voice-leading but i want to understand how it is constructed and thought-out from the composers view....

    Blind Lemon Mike

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  3. #2

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    That section is, in my view, moving to the target chord of Abmaj7. The Gb7 seems awkward in that context (especially when it goes to Cm7) but I just view it as a disguised Dbm6 (they share the tritone) which is the IVm of Ab. Viewed as Ddm6 the root moment is stepwise Db to C) In a way that chord acts as a pivot to drive you to the Ab in that it makes clear you are anchored in Ab.

    The next section continues the drive to Ab. The Bo7 is a passing chord between the Cmin7 and the Bbmin7. It could be viewed as a disguised Bb7 and the passage could be substituted with more traditional root anchors movement. as Cm7/Fm7/Bb7/Bbm7/Eb7/AbM7.

    Lots of fun stuff going on in that tune and a great lesson in key modulation.

  4. #3

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    I have always played that part of the tune with a descending bass line,

    Dbmaj7, Dbm7, Cm7, B7, Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj7.

    If you imagine for a moment that the changes above are correct, then ....

    1. You can view the Dbm7 as a iim and the Gb7 as the related V7.

    2. And, the Bdim is an alternative to the B7 (actually, Bdim sounds better, and, now that you've reminded me of it, I may use it).

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    Hey there,

    this is Mike from Germany, I'm new to this Community.

    I have played a little Jazz every once in a while but now want to start to take things a little more seriously and have a shot on more complex Standards then what i used to play up until now ( Autumn Leaves, All of Me etc..)

    I tried All The Thing You Are today and it is pretty clear to me what's happening except for 2 Chords where i ask for you help.

    1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

    I understand that the Eb is a common Tone and if you put it as the top Voice it kind of holds the 2 Chords together but is there a functioning connection between the two?
    I'm not really sure where this is in the tune... I don't think I've ever played this chord.

    2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

    I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?

    Can the whole passag really be viewed in Ab tonality-wise? Because that's where you come from and go, except for those 2 Chords? (C-7 beeing a III of Abmajor)
    Yes. Bo7 is a sort of linking or passing chord, similar in function to a VI7 chord, but more colourful. This type of chord bIIIo7, is very common in older standards - be on the look out for it! Jobim also likes it.

    The important thing I've learned is not to get hung up on the vertical relationships between passing chords. The important thing these chords provide interesting movement against a diatonic melody.

    For instance, if you had an Ab in the melody and wanted a strong harmonic movement to the Bbm7 chord, writing Fm7 might be a little boring. OTOH F7 wouldn't really fit (you could write F7#9 I suppose.) But the most common solution is to write Bo7.

    It's also very common when there is a F (6) or the notes G F (7-6) in this key... In the latter case you get a nice voicing with the Bdim7 (bIIIo7) and the G (7) in the top voice.... In this case an F9 would also work, but the bIIIo7 is a very common choice in this context and seems to have been a fashionable sound in the 1930 &40s.

    This is what ATTYA has... Very common cliche - look out for it....
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 05:03 AM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I have always played that part of the tune with a descending bass line,

    Dbmaj7, Dbm7, Cm7, B7, Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj7.

    If you imagine for a moment that the changes above are correct, then ....

    1. You can view the Dbm7 as a iim and the Gb7 as the related V7.

    2. And, the Bdim is an alternative to the B7 (actually, Bdim sounds better, and, now that you've reminded me of it, I may use it).
    I don't actually think bIII7 is used very often in original standards changes. I can only really think of one example, One Note Samba, from the post war era. Clearly it's a tritone sub for VI7 anyway, so I think of it as that really.

    The bIIIo7 is pretty old school. Some people prefer to reharmonise that sound to make it less old fashioned. A chromatic iim7 or ii-V motion is a common bebop choice... e.g.

    Cm7 Bm7 Bbm7

    Cm7 F7 Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7

    It would have to be a Bm7b5 F7b9 really, in this example, to fit the melody. You can get away with it if you leave out the 5th.... Or you could change the melody.

    A well known example of this is Darn That Dream. In the original changes we have a Bbo7 (bIIIo7) in the second half of bar 6 and the melody is E-Eb. (listen to 0:28ish)



    The real book changes are (Bbm7) bIIIm7, and the melody changed to F-Eb to fit. This is probably inspired by the Miles version:



    It's another one of those shibboleths BTW, what you pay in bar 6 of the tune. Old school guys like the dim7. Keep your ear out for the melody.

    Anyway, I digress. We should do a thread on DOD.... Fascinating tune.

  7. #6

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    Thanks for your views on this...It's good to go trought some different views

    I consulted a Theory-Book todas that suggestes this view:

    1. biii° as replacement for #IV dim which would be the V of V which and therefore directly linked to Eb7 in this case with the IIm7 just pushed inbetween the two...

    anyway i think i will just try out different approaches and see what works best...

    @christianm77

    the Gb13 comes right before the Cm7 so the whole thing is Gb7/13 | Cm7 | B°7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 . These are the last bars of the Tune, at least in my Real Book (sixth edition)

    Over the Gb13 chords the melody ist dotted half note Eb and a quarter note then followed by the Eb i n the melody over the C-7...

    regards
    Michael

  8. #7

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    I think most people play this as Dbmaj then Dbmin, then optionally a brief Gb7, then Cmin etc.

    Not worth getting hung up on that Gb7, just a passing chord. Much easier to think Db maj, then Db min, I don't worry about that Gb7 much when soloing on these bars.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    T

    anyway i think i will just try out different approaches and see what works best...
    Yep - that is one thing I like about this tune... the modulations, the stepwise lines... it gives you so much to work with that it is endless really.

    Rob

  10. #9

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    yeah but besides pragmatic approaches for playing I'm also that kind of person that cannot just accept things "because they work..." but it drives me mad if I don't get the theory behind it

    regars
    Michael

  11. #10

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    Ok that will do the job, thanks....

    have to check out the workings of the backdoor-cadence now....jazz is endless fun

    regards
    Michael

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    .

    @christianm77

    the Gb13 comes right before the Cm7 so the whole thing is Gb7/13 | Cm7 | B°7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 . These are the last bars of the Tune, at least in my Real Book (sixth edition)

    Over the Gb13 chords the melody ist dotted half note Eb and a quarter note then followed by the Eb i n the melody over the C-7...

    regards
    Michael
    Gotcha.

    I don't think of it being cm7 is the answer. I think Abmaj/c

    It's a backdoor dominant

  13. #12

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    I don't know why folks want to make things so complicated.

  14. #13

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    @henryrobinett

    what is your approach then?

    regards
    Michael

  15. #14

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    It follows the melody, that's how it works.

    I mean, the melody us either a 13 on the Gb chord or a 9 if you think Db minor.

    It's all just downward movement...but the melody dictates everything...I'm with henry, why over complicate?
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 07-02-2017 at 03:52 PM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  16. #15

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    sure, from the players point of view.

    But if you are about to write a melody, at least in this case, i would suggest you have harmonys in mind also.

    Therefore if you want to compose also it's quite interesting how you can make a simple melody more interesting or work out a melody to a alread complex structure that ist there in the first place.

    regards
    Michael

  17. #16

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    I'm failing to see the difference. A Gb13 and a Dbm6/9 are synonyms...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I'm failing to see the difference. A Gb13 and a Dbm6/9 are synonyms...
    Indeed. As a Barry Harris devotee we tend to think of the dominant (there is no such thing as II) but the II is part of the V, if you follow.

  19. #18

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    I don't get your point, honestly ?!? no offense...

    Not exactly synonyms, or are they?
    Doesn't the way you look at this change the way improvise over it? Or are you just always going to play Eb there....

    regards
    Michael

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Indeed. As a Barry Harris devotee we tend to think of the dominant (there is no such thing as II) but the II is part of the V, if you follow.
    I might just not follow anymore due to my limited knowledge. I don't know about Barry Harris ideas at all.

    If you can recommend something to read, it's appreciated

    regards
    Michael

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    sure, from the players point of view.

    But if you are about to write a melody, at least in this case, i would suggest you have harmonys in mind also.

    Therefore if you want to compose also it's quite interesting how you can make a simple melody more interesting or work out a melody to a alread complex structure that ist there in the first place.

    regards
    Michael
    Some of the changes are strongly implied by the melody (or vice versa) but in the case of the Db-/Gb7 and Bo7 chords, they are the product of chromatic voice leading/basslines against a diatonic melody. This is very common. Look at the standard repertoire of vocal standards and you will see not only the same chord progressions, but a lot of very similar melodic moves over them.

    For example. It's rare to have chromatic note - b6, b7 etc (I'm talking from the key) on a IVm or bVII7 in melody. In general, you find the 1, 4, 2 or 3 on this chord.

    In the last case you have bVII7#11 or IVm(maj7) written in the chart - look out for this. But it's just a 3 of the key with a chromatic chord behind it.

    Likewise, you'll rarely a b3 or a b5 on a bIIIo7 chord - those notes are reserved for the inner voices and bassline. The note is usually a 6, very often with an appogiatura 7 leading into it. You could also have 1.

    If you think about it, if you have a nice chromatic line running down, it's inelegant to also express that in the melody - bad counterpoint. It's better to have oblique motion between melody and the other lines in the chords (or even contrary motion). Just as in classical music there are certain formulae that work really well and get used over and over.

    This formulaicness of the melody against the changes makes learning tunes and working out 'chord melody' arrangements a lot easier.

    Where you will find these notes is in bop heads. Bop changes running is a different thing to the way standards were composed. Bop lines come out of voice leading.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 04:19 PM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    I don't get your point, honestly ?!? no offense...

    Not exactly synonyms, or are they?
    Doesn't the way you look at this change the way improvise over it? Or are you just always going to play Eb there....
    No it doesn't.

    I see those two chords, bVII7 and IVm as interchangeable and I think most experienced straightahead guys hear it that way. There's obviously a ii-V relationship, as the Berklee guys would say.

    Just google All the Things You Are and go to images and you will see some charts have Dbm and others have Gb7. It's pretty much 50/50.

    You can use a IV dorian/bVII mixolydian thing or IV melodic minor/bVII Lydian dominant thing, so to speak.

    (Re: Barry Harris, hoo, that's a can of worms. It's a different way to view it all (no modes for instance) and I think a MUCH better way for bop/functional playing, but it can be a little inaccessible for the newcomer. I started learning it at Barry's workshops, and I'd have to recommend the DVD sets available from Howard Rees. But they are expensive. Roni Ben Hurr's book Talk Jazz is a nice intro perhaps?)

    So whatever. My main advice to you would be check out lots of repertoire, melody and chords. Draw your own conclusions. I could write you a hand out but it would look like a bunch of math. It really is better if you do the work yourself, although the guidance of a teacher can be helpful. Could make a list of tunes if you like.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    yeah but besides pragmatic approaches for playing I'm also that kind of person that cannot just accept things "because they work..." but it drives me mad if I don't get the theory behind it

    regars
    Michael
    Theory never hurts. Unless one gets caught up inside it

    As mentioned, the Gb7 is "backdoor". The Bo7 I hear as kind of a dom7 to the Cm (VII7, iiim7). Try playing a straight G/B in that spot.

  24. #23

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    I couldn't figure out the Gb7 chord you were talking about. Then I realized it was what I sometimes play as the ii-V before Cm7. Dbm7 - Gb7. I mean it's just a II-V. It's easy peasy.

    What I was saying about making things really complicated is that. There's no reason why particularly, especially when you get into very modern music. One chord goes to another with little rhyme or reason. For me I see it, hear it and play what works. Simplicity. I spend almost no time THINKING about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune View Post
    Theory never hurts. Unless one gets caught up inside it

    As mentioned, the Gb7 is "backdoor". The Bo7 I hear as kind of a dom7 to the Cm (VII7, iiim7). Try playing a straight G/B in that spot.
    Man I tried that but really can't hear it as a vanilla choice myself.

    I'd be more likely to see it that way in a tune like Corcovado or Insensatez because the first chord in each of those is a m6 so has more of a minor tonic thing going on.

    In this context, the Cm7 has more of a first inversion Ab feel - it would take a b6, so the G/B is just in parallel and sounds a bit weird...

    Btw - each o7 chord relates to 4 doms:

    Bo7 --> Bb7, Db7, E7, G7

    In this case, I would be more likely to hear it as related to Bb7 rather than the G7

    BUT - you may get something out of using G/B in this context of course. Could be great for lines...

    Ab G7 Eb7 say....

    BTW, if we are thinking about composition rather than soloing I really don't think the composer was thinking of the dim7 being related to dominants here. I can't know for sure, but old school composers don't write like that, and Kern was old school. I reckon he'd be thinking - diatonic melody running 7-6, lets run descending minor thirds in the voice leading....

    These guys didn't write lead sheets with chord symbols. They wrote proper harmony.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 07:16 PM.

  26. #25

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    And the Bo I play as a Bo. Lol. I could play it as a G7/B. But I don't because the implications can shoot me down a road that doesn't sound very good to me, nine times out of ten. It's not a V chord. A V of ii, ok. But I like the sound of a diminished chord there. It just sounds good. So soloing I'll play a diminished arpeggio or scale or something or just let my ear guide me. I might do a funny substitution, depending on where I'm going.


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  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    I couldn't figure out the Gb7 chord you were talking about. Then I realized it was what I sometimes play as the ii-V before Cm7. Dbm7 - Gb7. I mean it's just a II-V. It's easy peasy.

    What I was saying about making things really complicated is that. There's no reason why particularly, especially when you get into very modern music. One chord goes to another with little rhyme or reason. For me I see it, hear it and play what works. Simplicity. I spend almost no time THINKING about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Perhaps people don't learn enough functional tunes. If you learn 50 standards and don't spot there's something going on with IVm bVII7 etc, and that they are basically the same thing, well... Maybe jazz isn't for you.

    But nowadays people learn a lot of modal and non functional rep right away. Beginners IMO shouldn't be dicking around with Speak no Evil and Footprints, they should be learning I Can't Give You Anything But Love (there's a tune with bIIIo7 and IVm), All of Me and tunes like that. Learn enough of those and it will give you the furniture....

    Just try playing trad jazz and swing gigs and not figuring that out. There would have to actually have to be something wrong with your brain not to spot those patterns.

    People - especially young players - want to be hip and modern and do cool things with harmony. I know I did. But that's like thinking about the decor before you've laid the foundations.

    Anyway - I never learned any of this stuff in books - although it looks terribly theoretical when I write it down. I learned it by winging songs on the band stand.

    Last 8 of All the Things? Descending horse with a swing turnaround. Nothing to write home about.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 07:29 PM.

  28. #27

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    Yup.


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  29. #28

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    I didn't really mean to use the G/B instead, although it works fine. More like listen to the functionality of it. But yeah, the dim is often one or more of four 7b9's. Bb7 is a functional variant too. That WHWHWH thing works either way

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Man I tried that but really can't hear it as a vanilla choice myself.

    I'd be more likely to see it that way in a tune like Corcovado or Insensatez because the first chord in each of those is a m6 so has more of a minor tonic thing going on.

    In this context, the Cm7 has more of a first inversion Ab feel - it would take a b6, so the G/B is just in parallel and sounds a bit weird...
    Playing through Donna Lee (in the same key of Ab as it happens) with a student this week and was reminded that it has the opposite diminished movement going on in the final bars:

    | Fm | C7 | Fm | Bo | Abmaj7/C F7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Ab6 | (Bbm7 Eb7 ||

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune View Post
    I didn't really mean to use the G/B instead, although it works fine. More like listen to the functionality of it. But yeah, the dim is often one or more of four 7b9's. Bb7 is a functional variant too. That WHWHWH thing works either way
    Sure. But I don't hear that function in that context. I'd enthusiastically agree if the tune was Insensatez. Or Stella.

    But then, I do like to run Bb dominant and raise the Bb to a B, which in Barry-speak would be running Bb7 into the third of G7 (c harmonic minor to normal people) - so ha, there is something to what you are saying.... There is a G7(b9) vibe going on I guess.... But the trcik of it is the resolution, which is definitely not to Cm. So it's not really a G7 function and you have to bodge it a bit. Works though.

    But I'm not entirely sure this Bo7 chord really has a function per se in this context. Harmonically it's just a bit of tasty voice leading leading from tonic (Ab or Cm7) to subdominant (Bbm7). For instance, as Barry Harris say:

    Ab C Eb F --> Ab6
    Ab B D F --> Abo7 (or Bo7)
    Ab Bb Db F --> Db6 (or Bbm7)

    Neat huh?

    I mean you can basically ignore it or replace with something else, F7b9 say... (Isn't that what Reg does, for instance?) I don't think Parker was into playing bIIIo7's that much. I mean he could write a Quasimodo, a whole head on Embraceable You - a huge bIIIo7 tune - and not reference the chord at all in his line.

    And yes, the dumb ass Berkleeoid W H also sounds good on bIIIo7.... In fact, it may be the most natural use of that scale. To me W H always sounds a bit awkward on dominant function dim chords like #Io7 going to IIm7 etc.

    Anyway... These bIIIo7 chords are quite poorly covered in a way which is probably down to changing fashions in music and the attendant blindspots in the education system. bIIIo7 is a common pre-bop choice for turnarounds, and most jazz courses start with bebop at which point o7's were drifting out of fashion.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 08:13 PM.

  32. #31

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    It has this ambiguous function, but still a function. F7 would be the obvious standard replacement (not b9 though, as I like the melody to fit ).

    I hear the "function" as similar to the E7/F in the opening of Sound Of Music, hence the G7b9/B feeling I had on All Of Me .

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune View Post
    It has this ambiguous function, but still a function. F7 would be the obvious standard replacement (not b9 though, as I like the melody to fit ).
    I was thinking for blowing. b9 to the max.

    (Unless it's gypsy jazz or swing or something in which case the more diatonic VI9 is a common stylistic choice. Or you have an accompanist who actually plays the chord symbols as written with extensions during solos. Please don't do that, it's rude.)

    I probably wouldn't use a F7 as a sub on the melody myself (personal taste, and beside I once got told off for doing that haha). If I wanted it to sound modern I'd use Bm7 E7 and perhaps modify the melody if it came to it (fifthless voicings would be fine.)


    I hear the "function" as similar to the E7/F in the opening of Sound Of Music, hence the G7b9/B feeling I had on All Of Me .
    I haven't checked out the sound of music as a tune if that makes sense. There's a nice version by Jim Mullen... What are other good jazz readings?
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 08:23 PM.

  34. #33

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  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I was thinking for blowing. b9 to the max on all secondary dominants. Screw the tune when you are spinning yer bop lines.
    Haha, nooo...

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune View Post
    Haha, nooo...
    What would you actually play a natural 9th on the chord cos that's what the tune is when you are soloing?

  37. #36

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    9th are pretty fluid when blowing...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    What would you actually play a natural 9th on the chord cos that's what the tune is when you are soloing?
    Just that I likely have the tune in the back of my head, so substitutions that clash with the head may also clash with my head. Short stabs of such substitutions is obviously no problem.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune View Post
    Just that I likely have the tune in the back of my head, so substitutions that clash with the head may also clash with my head. Short stabs of such substitutions is obviously no problem.
    Gotcha

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Perhaps people don't learn enough functional tunes. If you learn 50 standards and don't spot there's something going on with IVm bVII7 etc, and that they are basically the same thing, well... Maybe jazz isn't for you.

    But nowadays people learn a lot of modal and non functional rep right away. Beginners IMO shouldn't be dicking around with Speak no Evil and Footprints, they should be learning I Can't Give You Anything But Love (there's a tune with bIIIo7 and IVm), All of Me and tunes like that. Learn enough of those and it will give you the furniture....

    Just try playing trad jazz and swing gigs and not figuring that out. There would have to actually have to be something wrong with your brain not to spot those patterns.

    People - especially young players - want to be hip and modern and do cool things with harmony. I know I did. But that's like thinking about the decor before you've laid the foundations.

    Anyway - I never learned any of this stuff in books - although it looks terribly theoretical when I write it down. I learned it by winging songs on the band stand.

    Last 8 of All the Things? Descending horse with a swing turnaround. Nothing to write home about.
    Bare in mind we're in the "getting started" section, and in my case the guy who asks the question is just about to make his way into jazz coming from a Blues/Rock Background and having had a little bit of classical music theory where there is an exact "right" way to do things for everything ;-)

    I don't know much tunes at all and just start to build a repertoire.

    For me though, it's easier to understand the inner workings of progressions instead of heaving advise like "i just feel it, man..." or "i just hear it like this and that.... " , because I don't (not yet...) and have to first develop a good ear for new kinds of progressions.

    It seems that a lot of Jazz-Guys have at times pretty individual concepts, which is not bad at all, but maybe harder to generalize and communicate.

    Thanks to you all for your advise and help, it's much appreciated, seems to be an helpful Forum here :-)

    I'm now trying to practise that and you will hear from me with my next problem ;-)

    regards
    Michael

  41. #40

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    Bear in mind that in jazz, if you ever get stuck on what to play over a given chord, you can get out of trouble just by playing something based on some of the chord tones (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, maybe 9th) of that chord. Add some judiciously chosen chromatic passing notes in between some of the chord tones, and it will sound just fine.
    Last edited by grahambop; 07-03-2017 at 07:21 AM.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    Bare in mind we're in the "getting started" section, and in my case the guy who asks the question is just about to make his way into jazz coming from a Blues/Rock Background and having had a little bit of classical music theory where there is an exact "right" way to do things for everything ;-)

    I don't know much tunes at all and just start to build a repertoire.

    For me though, it's easier to understand the inner workings of progressions instead of heaving advise like "i just feel it, man..." or "i just hear it like this and that.... " , because I don't (not yet...) and have to first develop a good ear for new kinds of progressions.

    It seems that a lot of Jazz-Guys have at times pretty individual concepts, which is not bad at all, but maybe harder to generalize and communicate.

    Thanks to you all for your advise and help, it's much appreciated, seems to be an helpful Forum here :-)

    I'm now trying to practise that and you will hear from me with my next problem ;-)

    regards
    Michael
    Just work on referencing the chord tones on the way to nailing the Abmaj resolution. Loop the section and slow it down. Try all sorts of things. If what you play on the way to the resolution is coherent, and nail the resolution, it should sound good.

    Listen to different versions by the old school functional guys, who play in a very logical way, like Clifford Brown, donald Byrd, Blue Mitchell, etc. To my mind it is often easier to hear what trumpet players are doing. To your surprise, you may find it sounds like they are staying in one major scale all the way down to the resolution.

  43. #42

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    (Dbmaj7 IV) (Dbmin6 iv ) (Cmin7 iii) (Bo7 biiio7 aka io7 ) ( Bbmin7 ii ) (Eb7 V7) (Abmaj7 I)

    cheers
    Tim

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike View Post
    1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?
    What Gb7? There isn't one.

    2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?
    It's just a passing chord.

    What's the problem here?

  45. #44

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    Blind Lemon Mike -

    This is the more complex answer, if you want it. My post above isn't as stupid as it looks. But it hasn't answered your question directly so I better do that. You know, most learners' queries aren't a simple matter of giving straight information, they're usually to do with putting misconceptions right. This is a good example.

    I've only seen one version of this tune (out of maybe 8 or 9 so far!) that has Gb7 instead of Dbm. And you say your Real Book version uses it. So be it.

    1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?
    There's no 'connection' between the Gb7 and the Cm7. It's a series of descending ii-V's using various substitutions but the composer has left out Bm7/E7, that's all. However, the B note is included in a different way.

    Descending ii-V's: Dbm7/Gb7 - Cm7/F7 - Bm7/E7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - Ab.

    That has become DbM7 - Dbm7/Gb7 - Cm7/F7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - AbM7.

    That has become DbM7 - Dbm7 (or Gb7) - Cm7 - Bo - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7.

    2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

    I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?
    The tritone of F is B so that could have been B7b5 but Bo is nicer. Most passing connecting chords are diminished. Besides, it makes it chromatic if you use Db-C-B-Bb.

    So if you want to use Gb7 that's okay. But Bo isn't a sub for A7b9. It might be a sub for G7b9 but that doesn't really work either, it's not where the Bo comes from. There's no G7 in this.

    Clear as mud, right? Just think of it all as a way of making a nice chromatic run-down and you'll be fine

  46. #45

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    Some of the bebop guys play Bm7, E7 instead of that Bdim (e.g. Dexter Gordon on his ATTYA contrafact 'Boston Bernie'.)

    And Bdim can be regarded as E7 (with a flat 9), so it all comes to much the same thing.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Some of the bebop guys play Bm7, E7 instead of that Bdim (e.g. Dexter Gordon on his ATTYA contrafact 'Boston Bernie'.)

    And Bdim can be regarded as E7 (with a flat 9), so it all comes to much the same thing.
    *bangs head on desk repeatedly while sobbing*

  48. #47

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    Hey at least there's some consensus for a change!

  49. #48

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    Easy way


    / Fmin7 / Bbmin7 / Eb7 / Abma7 / Dbma7 / Dbmin7 / Cmin7 / Bo7 / Bbmin7 / Eb7 / Abma7 / GØ C7b9 /


    Similar to the 1st A section, ist five chords all in same key, Ab Maj or F Natural Min. Ab Maj is the scale to use. Dbmin7 is a Dorian


    scale Cb Major and Cmin7 should also be a Dorian Bb Maj. B diminished 7 uses W ½ diminished scale W ½ W ½ W ½ W ½. next a II – V – I


    in Ab Major play Ab Major scale. Final is II – V back to the Fmin7 at the start. F Harmonic Minor scale works for both chords.






    A bit more difficult


    repeat ist first five chords


    Dbmin7 Dorian Cb Maj


    Cmin7 Dorian Bb Major


    Bo7 W ½ Diminished scale W ½ W ½ W ½ W ½


    some players use the Bmin7 with a dorian scale instead of Bo7


    Bbmin7 IImin7 needs Bb Dorian Ab Maj


    Eb7 use any dominant 7th scale except a Minor Blues


    Abma7 Ab Major or AbLydian/Eb Major


    GØ G locrian Ab Major or F Harmonic Min


    C7 F Harmonic Min & ( C Super Locrian C# Melodic Min )

  50. #49

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    If that's the easy way, I'd hate to see the complicated way

  51. #50

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    That biiio7 (or io7 or #ivo7 or whatever) is a very common thing in jazz, so it would obviously be good to define that sound/function to oneself. You may of course call it whatever you want, as long as you can make use of the definition.

    I-biio7-ii-V7 is probably more common, where the biio7 is more of a VI7. I-biiio7-ii-V7 is also widely used and creates a different tension. To me, and maybe me alone, this o7 is somewhat of a dominant (VII7) to iii, which is I's closest relative (first inversion of IMaj9). Of course, any note/chord within the o7's WH-scale is at one's disposal

    Consider also the melody note in this instance, G, which makes it a full on G7b9/B. Others may again define these ambiguous o7's differently, but at least my definition makes practical sense to me, myself and I . It's a nice tension to bring in on a static I too (the VII7 / io7).

    Made a little video underlining the VII7 (G7) over Bo7.

    Last edited by Runepune; 07-05-2017 at 12:18 PM.