All The Thing You Are - Need Help with 2 Chords

[Runepune]

I didn't really mean to use the G/B instead, although it works fine. More like listen to the functionality of it. But yeah, the dim is often one or more of four 7b9's. Bb7 is a functional variant too. That WHWHWH thing works either way

[PMB]

Man I tried that but really can't hear it as a vanilla choice myself.

I'd be more likely to see it that way in a tune like Corcovado or Insensatez because the first chord in each of those is a m6 so has more of a minor tonic thing going on.

In this context, the Cm7 has more of a first inversion Ab feel - it would take a b6, so the G/B is just in parallel and sounds a bit weird...

Playing through Donna Lee (in the same key of Ab as it happens) with a student this week and was reminded that it has the opposite diminished movement going on in the final bars:

| Fm | C7 | Fm | Bo | Abmaj7/C F7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Ab6 | (Bbm7 Eb7 ||

[christianm77]

I didn't really mean to use the G/B instead, although it works fine. More like listen to the functionality of it. But yeah, the dim is often one or more of four 7b9's. Bb7 is a functional variant too. That WHWHWH thing works either way

Sure. But I don't hear that function in that context. I'd enthusiastically agree if the tune was Insensatez. Or Stella.

But then, I do like to run Bb dominant and raise the Bb to a B, which in Barry-speak would be running Bb7 into the third of G7 (c harmonic minor to normal people) - so ha, there is something to what you are saying.... There is a G7(b9) vibe going on I guess.... But the trcik of it is the resolution, which is definitely not to Cm. So it's not really a G7 function and you have to bodge it a bit. Works though.

But I'm not entirely sure this Bo7 chord really has a function per se in this context. Harmonically it's just a bit of tasty voice leading leading from tonic (Ab or Cm7) to subdominant (Bbm7). For instance, as Barry Harris say:

Ab C Eb F --> Ab6
Ab B D F --> Abo7 (or Bo7)
Ab Bb Db F --> Db6 (or Bbm7)

Neat huh?

I mean you can basically ignore it or replace with something else, F7b9 say... (Isn't that what Reg does, for instance?) I don't think Parker was into playing bIIIo7's that much. I mean he could write a Quasimodo, a whole head on Embraceable You - a huge bIIIo7 tune - and not reference the chord at all in his line.

And yes, the dumb ass Berkleeoid W H also sounds good on bIIIo7.... In fact, it may be the most natural use of that scale. To me W H always sounds a bit awkward on dominant function dim chords like #Io7 going to IIm7 etc.

Anyway... These bIIIo7 chords are quite poorly covered in a way which is probably down to changing fashions in music and the attendant blindspots in the education system. bIIIo7 is a common pre-bop choice for turnarounds, and most jazz courses start with bebop at which point o7's were drifting out of fashion.

[Runepune]

It has this ambiguous function, but still a function. F7 would be the obvious standard replacement (not b9 though, as I like the melody to fit ).

I hear the "function" as similar to the E7/F in the opening of Sound Of Music, hence the G7b9/B feeling I had on All Of Me .

[christianm77]

It has this ambiguous function, but still a function. F7 would be the obvious standard replacement (not b9 though, as I like the melody to fit ).

I was thinking for blowing. b9 to the max.

(Unless it's gypsy jazz or swing or something in which case the more diatonic VI9 is a common stylistic choice. Or you have an accompanist who actually plays the chord symbols as written with extensions during solos. Please don't do that, it's rude.)

I probably wouldn't use a F7 as a sub on the melody myself (personal taste, and beside I once got told off for doing that haha). If I wanted it to sound modern I'd use Bm7 E7 and perhaps modify the melody if it came to it (fifthless voicings would be fine.)

I hear the "function" as similar to the E7/F in the opening of Sound Of Music, hence the G7b9/B feeling I had on All Of Me .

I haven't checked out the sound of music as a tune if that makes sense. There's a nice version by Jim Mullen... What are other good jazz readings?

[PMB]

[Runepune]

I was thinking for blowing. b9 to the max on all secondary dominants. Screw the tune when you are spinning yer bop lines.

Haha, nooo...

[christianm77]

Haha, nooo...

What would you actually play a natural 9th on the chord cos that's what the tune is when you are soloing?

[mr. beaumont]

9th are pretty fluid when blowing...

[Runepune]

What would you actually play a natural 9th on the chord cos that's what the tune is when you are soloing?

Just that I likely have the tune in the back of my head, so substitutions that clash with the head may also clash with my head. Short stabs of such substitutions is obviously no problem.

[christianm77]

Just that I likely have the tune in the back of my head, so substitutions that clash with the head may also clash with my head. Short stabs of such substitutions is obviously no problem.

Gotcha

[Blind Lemon Mike]

Perhaps people don't learn enough functional tunes. If you learn 50 standards and don't spot there's something going on with IVm bVII7 etc, and that they are basically the same thing, well... Maybe jazz isn't for you.

But nowadays people learn a lot of modal and non functional rep right away. Beginners IMO shouldn't be dicking around with Speak no Evil and Footprints, they should be learning I Can't Give You Anything But Love (there's a tune with bIIIo7 and IVm), All of Me and tunes like that. Learn enough of those and it will give you the furniture....

Just try playing trad jazz and swing gigs and not figuring that out. There would have to actually have to be something wrong with your brain not to spot those patterns.

People - especially young players - want to be hip and modern and do cool things with harmony. I know I did. But that's like thinking about the decor before you've laid the foundations.

Anyway - I never learned any of this stuff in books - although it looks terribly theoretical when I write it down. I learned it by winging songs on the band stand.

Last 8 of All the Things? Descending horse with a swing turnaround. Nothing to write home about.

Bare in mind we're in the "getting started" section, and in my case the guy who asks the question is just about to make his way into jazz coming from a Blues/Rock Background and having had a little bit of classical music theory where there is an exact "right" way to do things for everything ;-)

I don't know much tunes at all and just start to build a repertoire.

For me though, it's easier to understand the inner workings of progressions instead of heaving advise like "i just feel it, man..." or "i just hear it like this and that.... " , because I don't (not yet...) and have to first develop a good ear for new kinds of progressions.

It seems that a lot of Jazz-Guys have at times pretty individual concepts, which is not bad at all, but maybe harder to generalize and communicate.

Thanks to you all for your advise and help, it's much appreciated, seems to be an helpful Forum here :-)

I'm now trying to practise that and you will hear from me with my next problem ;-)

regards
Michael

[grahambop]

Bear in mind that in jazz, if you ever get stuck on what to play over a given chord, you can get out of trouble just by playing something based on some of the chord tones (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, maybe 9th) of that chord. Add some judiciously chosen chromatic passing notes in between some of the chord tones, and it will sound just fine.

[StanG]

Bare in mind we're in the "getting started" section, and in my case the guy who asks the question is just about to make his way into jazz coming from a Blues/Rock Background and having had a little bit of classical music theory where there is an exact "right" way to do things for everything ;-)

I don't know much tunes at all and just start to build a repertoire.

For me though, it's easier to understand the inner workings of progressions instead of heaving advise like "i just feel it, man..." or "i just hear it like this and that.... " , because I don't (not yet...) and have to first develop a good ear for new kinds of progressions.

It seems that a lot of Jazz-Guys have at times pretty individual concepts, which is not bad at all, but maybe harder to generalize and communicate.

Thanks to you all for your advise and help, it's much appreciated, seems to be an helpful Forum here :-)

I'm now trying to practise that and you will hear from me with my next problem ;-)

regards
Michael

Just work on referencing the chord tones on the way to nailing the Abmaj resolution. Loop the section and slow it down. Try all sorts of things. If what you play on the way to the resolution is coherent, and nail the resolution, it should sound good.

Listen to different versions by the old school functional guys, who play in a very logical way, like Clifford Brown, donald Byrd, Blue Mitchell, etc. To my mind it is often easier to hear what trumpet players are doing. To your surprise, you may find it sounds like they are staying in one major scale all the way down to the resolution.

[TLerch]

(Dbmaj7 IV) (Dbmin6 iv ) (Cmin7 iii) (Bo7 biiio7 aka io7 ) ( Bbmin7 ii ) (Eb7 V7) (Abmaj7 I)

cheers
Tim

[ragman1]

1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

What Gb7? There isn't one.

2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

It's just a passing chord.

What's the problem here?

[ragman1]

Blind Lemon Mike -

This is the more complex answer, if you want it. My post above isn't as stupid as it looks. But it hasn't answered your question directly so I better do that. You know, most learners' queries aren't a simple matter of giving straight information, they're usually to do with putting misconceptions right. This is a good example.

I've only seen one version of this tune (out of maybe 8 or 9 so far!) that has Gb7 instead of Dbm. And you say your Real Book version uses it. So be it.

1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

There's no 'connection' between the Gb7 and the Cm7. It's a series of descending ii-V's using various substitutions but the composer has left out Bm7/E7, that's all. However, the B note is included in a different way.

Descending ii-V's: Dbm7/Gb7 - Cm7/F7 - Bm7/E7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - Ab.

That has become DbM7 - Dbm7/Gb7 - Cm7/F7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - AbM7.

That has become DbM7 - Dbm7 (or Gb7) - Cm7 - Bo - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7.

2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?

The tritone of F is B so that could have been B7b5 but Bo is nicer. Most passing connecting chords are diminished. Besides, it makes it chromatic if you use Db-C-B-Bb.

So if you want to use Gb7 that's okay. But Bo isn't a sub for A7b9. It might be a sub for G7b9 but that doesn't really work either, it's not where the Bo comes from. There's no G7 in this.

Clear as mud, right? Just think of it all as a way of making a nice chromatic run-down and you'll be fine

[grahambop]

Some of the bebop guys play Bm7, E7 instead of that Bdim (e.g. Dexter Gordon on his ATTYA contrafact 'Boston Bernie'.)

And Bdim can be regarded as E7 (with a flat 9), so it all comes to much the same thing.

[christianm77]

Some of the bebop guys play Bm7, E7 instead of that Bdim (e.g. Dexter Gordon on his ATTYA contrafact 'Boston Bernie'.)

And Bdim can be regarded as E7 (with a flat 9), so it all comes to much the same thing.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly while sobbing*

[christianm77]

Hey at least there's some consensus for a change!

[Durban]

Easy way


/ Fmin7 / Bbmin7 / Eb7 / Abma7 / Dbma7 / Dbmin7 / Cmin7 / Bo7 / Bbmin7 / Eb7 / Abma7 / GØ C7b9 /


Similar to the 1st A section, ist five chords all in same key, Ab Maj or F Natural Min. Ab Maj is the scale to use. Dbmin7 is a Dorian


scale Cb Major and Cmin7 should also be a Dorian Bb Maj. B diminished 7 uses W ½ diminished scale W ½ W ½ W ½ W ½. next a II – V – I


in Ab Major play Ab Major scale. Final is II – V back to the Fmin7 at the start. F Harmonic Minor scale works for both chords.






A bit more difficult


repeat ist first five chords


Dbmin7 Dorian Cb Maj


Cmin7 Dorian Bb Major


Bo7 W ½ Diminished scale W ½ W ½ W ½ W ½


some players use the Bmin7 with a dorian scale instead of Bo7


Bbmin7 IImin7 needs Bb Dorian Ab Maj


Eb7 use any dominant 7th scale except a Minor Blues


Abma7 Ab Major or AbLydian/Eb Major


GØ G locrian Ab Major or F Harmonic Min


C7 F Harmonic Min & ( C Super Locrian C# Melodic Min )

[christianm77]

If that's the easy way, I'd hate to see the complicated way

[Runepune]

That biiio7 (or io7 or #ivo7 or whatever) is a very common thing in jazz, so it would obviously be good to define that sound/function to oneself. You may of course call it whatever you want, as long as you can make use of the definition.

I-biio7-ii-V7 is probably more common, where the biio7 is more of a VI7. I-biiio7-ii-V7 is also widely used and creates a different tension. To me, and maybe me alone, this o7 is somewhat of a dominant (VII7) to iii, which is I's closest relative (first inversion of IMaj9). Of course, any note/chord within the o7's WH-scale is at one's disposal

Consider also the melody note in this instance, G, which makes it a full on G7b9/B. Others may again define these ambiguous o7's differently, but at least my definition makes practical sense to me, myself and I . It's a nice tension to bring in on a static I too (the VII7 / io7).

Made a little video underlining the VII7 (G7) over Bo7.

[Jonah]

Just checked... in my Real book it goes

Db-7 Gb9|Abmaj7 |Bo7 etc.

So there's a sort of 'backdoor' turnaround in Ab major with relevant ii to Gb chord

C-7 is also possible as a iii in Abmaj... (quite common sub and following changes in traditional harmony to avoid full tonic cadence)... you could even go on by v-ii cycle and put F7 instead of Bo7 (as V to Bb-7) or even F-7

So this C-7 Bo7 Bb-7 Eb7 can be reduced to I-VI-II-V (Abmaj7 F-7 Bb-7 Eb7) and this Gb9 is backdoor to Abmaj7 (of course if we accept backdoor as an explanation)))

[Durban]

[QUOTE=Runepune;785611]That biiio7 (or io7 or #ivo7 or whatever) i

Made a little video underlining the VII7 (G7) over Bo7.

really nice vid & playing

for me i heard a hint of Stella in there

but re the biiio7 also Tonic Abdim7 can play AbdimMaj7 or G/Ab no B in Bass this gives Tonic DimM7 G is Melody note Followed by F (diminished 7th bb7 or sixth in Ab )