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Hey everyone.
I'm working on the tune "Here's That Rainy Day" and trying to figure out the proper scales and modes to use over each chord when improvising. I'm new to this so I would like your comments on my work so far..
It's especially the last part of the tune i just can't figure out, a progression om not knowing/into or? ... But if i'm wrong elsewhere please comment.
This is the last 16 bars of the tune:
Gmaj7 (G ionian), Bb7 (Bb mixolydian), Ebmaj7 (Eb ionian), Abmaj7 (Ab lydian)
A-7(add 11) (A Dorian), D7 (D mixolydian), Gmaj7 (G ionian), D-7 (D Dorian) G7(b9) (G mixolydian or some sort of diminished)
Cmaj7 (C ionian), A-7 (?) D13/C (?), B-7 (?) E-7 (?), A13 (?)
A-7(add 11) (A dorian), D7 ( D mixolydian), G6 (G Ionian) E-7 (E Aeolian), A-7 (A dorian) D7 (D mixolydian).
Well I hope it's understandable and someone can teach me some theory here.
ThanksLast edited by JonasSlavensky; 07-21-2016 at 04:13 PM.
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07-21-2016 04:04 PM
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ted greene gave me some tips on this one...
Its ALL in G...
the first four chords form a (Dameron turnaround--AKA Coltrane turnaround) so its a I bIII7 bVIM7 bIIM7..ii7 V7 IM7-GM7 for 2 bars 23-24-to second ending..
(Im not seeing a prep ii7-V7 going into the C chord..)(the B note is tied for two bars from the GM7 chord--bars 23-24) then it goes straight to CMA7 (bar 25)--which is the IVM7 chord..then V7
then two beats of iii7...two beats of vi7 -- II7..ii7/11--two beats of V7-- two beats of V9 then IM13 or 6/9-end
now..there are a few versions of this tune..I have seem some beginning the tune with Gmi7...so your chords could be ok...but I don't agree with their function..so
my take on your chords in question-at bar 25--
IVM7 to V7 then its iii7 vi7 ii7 V7 I-end
hope this helpsLast edited by wolflen; 07-21-2016 at 06:43 PM.
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Wow! Really?
I have been working on this tune for some time, almost completed my first chord melody. Got some nice chords but need to insert some base line movements in some of the gaps.
... but improvisation, is that really the approach? That seems to be a lot of stuff to go through ones head?
I have been practicing running through arpeggios sometimes scales to get a good feel for the sounds. When I then improv my approach has been to forget all that and just think/feel the chords and play melody's. I Have I simplified it too much?
Help!?
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Rather than treat each chord as an isolated event, think of function and context. It also helps to simplify everything initially to key areas before getting too specific. For instance, have you noticed that all the chords in the sequence Cmaj7, A-7, D13/C, B-7, E-7, A13 are derived from the G major scale with the exception of the A13, a II dominant that only requires the C to be raised to a C#? Applying modal concepts to tonally conceived music can be a bit like hammering in a nail with a pair of pliers - possible but not ideal.
Originally Posted by JonasSlavensky
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Despite what was said, this tune is not all in G. It does what every jazz tune does and moves around to different tonal centers. You would be making the job of soloing much harder by thinking of every mode for every chord individually. Yes it can be good to be able to relate chords to their modes but it's more important when improvising to do the least amount of thinking possible. So instead of thinking "Bb7 (Bb mixolydian), Ebmaj7 (Eb ionian), Abmaj7 (Ab lydian)", just think Eb major scale. Now as far as key centers go, by my count there are 6 keys represented, if but briefly: G, Eb, C minor, Bb, C & D. Some of them are kind of funky like bars 8 & 9 suggest C minor, but the ii chord is probably best thought of as borrowed from another mode (C ionian). Then in bar 27 & 28 the key of D shows up very quickly in the form of a ii-V, but no I (another typical jazzism). The other thing that can make analysis a bit tough is that many chords serve double duty as for example the C minor in bar 9 serves as both the i in a ii-V-i, but it also serves as the ii for a ii-V-I in Bb major. In the B section by the way, you don't want the b9 on the G7, it's just a normal ii-V-I in C major. If you flat the 9 you kind of screw yourself up by essentially playing in C minor over what is C major. It's silly to try to analyze this all in G. There are clearly 6 different key centers.
Last edited by Guitarzen; 07-22-2016 at 01:43 AM.
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Thanks for your relpies.
Wolflen; What you are saying is a bit hard to follow.. maybe cause i'm not knowing the tune well enough, doesn't know the theory well, or just not understand what you're writting. My english ain't that good.. ;-)
PMB; I know I know, It seems like everything is isolated in my analysis. And I'm trying to look after progressions and so.. I think your right that Cmaj7, A-7, D13/C, B-7, E-7, is derived from G major but what about the A13 Isn't that one derived from D major?
Guitarzen; Again, I know, think in context and not chords isolated from each other.. As you write I can't see everthing just going in G.. I also see 6 different keys in this tune..
Again, thanks for your replies!
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This. Originally Posted by wolflen
Meaning you use G as your base of operations and make small adjustments as the chords change. You can use your ear.
Trying to shift from scale to scale and using modes is over-complicating things. Call it "can't see the forest for the trees".
There are a number of similar tunes like this.
Take all that modal crapola and put it in the trash (unless you have a truly modal tune like "So What").
The above is the opinion of the author and should not be construed to represent the views of Jazz Guitar Forum or its members.Last edited by Drumbler; 07-22-2016 at 07:43 AM.
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Sure, but the important thing to note is that the only difference regarding pitch content between G major and D major is that C is raised to C#. When moving from one scale to the next, I like to keep track of what stays the same and what changes (and that's hard when assigning modes to every single chord). This becomes particularly important when playing in a motivic manner - a phrase may need little or no alteration when restated over a seemingly unrelated chord change. Originally Posted by JonasSlavensky
Another point worth mentioning is that if your analysis is intended as a basis for soloing, the lines you come up with will tend to begin on the root of each chord change. Jazz phrases rarely do that (the rhythmic equivalent would be starting all your phrases on beat 1 of the bar).
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PMB; Maybe you could tell me what your approach would be, if you should play solo over this tune? What would your starting point be? Your approach? From chord to chord or from one progression to another? As said I'm new to this so anything would help.
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If that works for you Drumbler, fine. But to say being aware of modes and making use of them is crap is just your opinion. I shift from scale to scale and also relate chords to their modes to quickly and fluidly play over changes. There is definitely such a thing as over complicating your soloing, but there is also such a thing as over simplifying, and just saying "it's all in G" and "use your ear" doesn't cut it for me, and I think for most advanced improvisors. Originally Posted by Drumbler
For me, shifting from scale to scale is a small adjustment that I can do quickly and easily. I've been playing long enough that when I see a dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I instantly know it's a ii-V-I in C, and I instantly know it's D dorian, G Mixo, and C ionian, and this does actually help me play more fluidly as I relate all my scale boxes to chord shapes based on the mode the chord is currently in. It's not over complicating for me because I don't have to think about it, it's like a reflex now after all these years of practice. If thinking about modes or switching to different scales is too much for you, that's fine, you can find another way to accomplish the goal of playing fluidly over the changes. But to suggest those of us who are thinking of modes or analyzing changes on the fly and switching to the appropriate scale are over complicating the matter is not necessarily true (although it can be true if someone is not well practiced at it). No offense meant to you Mr. Drumbler, I'm sure you are a fine musician. But when you say "my way is the right way, everyone else's way is shit", you are kind of begging for an argument aren't you? Originally Posted by Drumbler
Your comments COULD be interpreted as "it's too hard for me to think about key changes and different scales and chord functions, so nobody else could possibly be smart enough to use that information, so throw it all in the trash it is crapola." That doesn't seem like the right attitude to have does it?
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This is a good and important discussion for some of us, namely me. Thank you.
Can we please not play the man and lose the value that may otherwise emanate.
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guitarzen..
appreciate your insight on this tune..if seeing this as a multi key tune and approaching it as such works for you .. good..there are many roads to take..ted greene was just one of them...he does re-harmonize it showing the effects of different harmonic approaches. But he reminds you..the melody rules..no matter how you reharm it..
my take:
Its not a modal tune..no other key is established .. the Dameron turnaround is just that..a nice technique used in the beginning of a tune instead of its end or approaching a cadence. The chords are submissive to the melody and are not guide posts to key centers of any kind..to me a dominate to major may infer a key..but it is no means a true modulation to a "key center" as in a tune like "Body and Soul" where modulation is clearly established and treated as such harmonically and melodically.. again my view..so at best these are "passing" chords" that resolve into the true ii7-V7 of the established key..I see the AbMa7 as a tritone chord-(Db alt/Ab) then chromatic bass movement to-Am then the dom D7-but again..that is making a fairly simple progression complex..
listen to how Bill Evans treats this tune..now we can analyze all we like..his level of playing is way beyond most of us (ALL of us)..is he "thinking" in more than one key...does it matter really..
now of course you can use any techniques to solo over any progression..but again using non diatonic scales/modes does not establish a key center..not to say playing over them from that approach is not valid..it is
I hope you view this as observation and not criticism of your views..Last edited by wolflen; 07-22-2016 at 08:57 PM.
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If I was new to the tune (I've been playing this one for years) and really wanted to get deep with it, I'd listen to a bunch of vocal versions, preferably by singers who don't take too much liberty to get a handle on the melody and lyrics before anything else. Standards offer the opportunity to do more than just blow over an abstract set of changes. The lyrics will provide a syllabic basis for getting the melody under your fingers and provide a key to the sentiment of the song. What melodic motifs are peculiar to the tune? Notice the use of repeated notes throughout the head for Here's That Rainy Day with five of the first six chords (Gmaj7, Bb7, Ebmaj7, A-11, D7) outlined by a common D natural. Originally Posted by JonasSlavensky
After that, I'd listen to instrumental versions and do some transcription. How have others navigated through their way through the tune? I'd then check a few reliable lead sheets. How have the melody and chords been altered over time? It's easy to smooth over difficult intervals and melodic leaps (singers do it all the time :-)) or miss unusual chord changes. The next step would be to listen out for voice-leading opportunities. For example, over the the progression mentioned in my earlier post, the original melody suggests a descending line: Cmaj7 (E), A-7 (E), D13/C (E), B-7 (D), E-7 (D), A13 (C#), A-7 (C), D7 (C), Gmaj7 (B).
Another useful exercise when dealing with less diatonic progressions (e.g. the opening "Tadd Dameron" extended turnaround) is to run what has been referred to as 'big' scales over the changes. Start at the lowest note in any position, play up the scale of choice and transition to a new scale when necessary. Keep going until the highest note in that position is reached and then descend. It's a great way to get around thinking about each chord from the root and will often highlight more voice-leading possibilities:
There's been a lot of talk about simplifying the changes but you may equally want to superimpose harmonic ideas upon the basic progressions to gain greater forward motion or simply to delight the ear with alternative routes. These may not always work strictly with the melody but be ideal for the blowing choruses. For example, one common substitution for the first two bars that does fit with the melody is | G- / G-maj7 / | G-7 / G-6 | (Ebmaj7) |.Last edited by PMB; 07-23-2016 at 04:17 AM.
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I thought I would post some ideas from ted greene on reharms of this tune.. please note the key signatures in each example...have fun
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1979-07-16.pdf
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Woflen (or anyone else) I would love to read/understand your solo techniques if you have time.now of course you can use any techniques to solo over any progression.
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gg.. Originally Posted by gggomez
If the tune is a traditional standard I use the melody to guide me..that is being aware of rhythmic patterns, turnarounds and any cadence that may demand the tune to break or go to another section..of course the harmony is also a guide..but substitutions abound in an improvisation giving great freedom to play with melodic variations..
In blues..fusion or modal type settings..after the initial melody is stated..I draw upon what I have studied - symmetric harmony for a number of years and use diminished and augmented theory exploration in a lot of my improve-that is..if there is a G7 for several bars .. I will see G7 Bb7 Db7 and E7 as ONE chord.and more..take a GMA7 chord..break it down and see that it could also be Bb13#5b9 or EbM7#5#9 orl a Emi9.. .and all the substitutions and alterations and implied harmonic possibilities that may be related to those chords..I will use all the possible harmonic material within the diminished and augmented scales..adding melodic fragments and patterns to keep the solo moving..using triads..scales and quoting other melodies out of context - movie soundtrack themes-TV jingles .. but playing them so they are not recognized as such .. and of course the many clichés you gather along the way.. and some classical lines I am working with now...
I studied with ted greene for 2 years and have studied the material by Howard Roberts Joe Diorio Larry Carlton and influenced by McLaughlin Steve Vai Eric Johnson..Benson..Ben Monder..Scofield Kenny Burrell and of course Hendrix..
I still draw on early blues and rock and put it in a "jazz" context they way Larry Carlton might explore in a solo..today there are so many players that are just wonderful ..not only guitar but all instruments..
for me the term jazz is wide and I let ridged categorization bypass me..
a Les Paul.. a Tele and an acoustic .. Blues Jr w/12" jenson .. a twin when I can get to use one and a multi effects board..it has over 30 F/X .. I use 5 at most.. I play everyday .. several hours and practice on isolated material until its under my fingers..
that's a thumbnail sketch..Last edited by wolflen; 07-23-2016 at 06:11 PM.
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Not sure if anyone has pointed this out but there is nothing really unusual in the progression the first few chords are all b5 subs for the 1625 turn around in G. Originally Posted by JonasSlavensky
Simples
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Guitarzen,
My apologies for my lack of tact.
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Yes of course the D note is integral to the melody. Great tip.
Experimented riffing on and off the D across the chords today, thought it sounded good. Enhances melodic improv as stay connected to the songs melody.
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Again, thanks for your replies.. Got something new to remember when working on a tune
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I've had a similar discussion (is it all in G or in different keys?) years ago with a classical musician, even if not for this particular tune.
I came up with the following conclusion. The classical analysis is that in many cases a tune or parts of it can be viewed as being all in the same tonality, or key center. Some chords that seem to go out of the main key center are simply interpreted as delays, chromatic movements, secondary dominants, but not true modulations to another tonality.
In the example above, the fact that at some point you find an A7 does not necessarily mean that the tune has moved to the key of D, even if you are going to play a note (C# against the A7), which clearly is not part of the G scale.
The A7 might be interpreted as a secondary dominant.
The first bars could be interpreted as follows: the intention is to go from G (I) to Am7 (ii). The easy way to do this is by chromatic approach G, G# (Ab), Am7. Ok, now it is possible to enrich the chromaticism G#(Ab) with a chord that points to it. Eb is a good candidate because of the intervallic distance between Eb and Ab, and so is Bb7 related to Eb.
All this is not considered as a real modulation (at least in classical sense).
But these are just words and theory. If, in practice, someone finds it useful to consider Bb7 Eb as chords in a new key center, good for them. In the end what really counts are the notes you are going to play over such chords and if you like what you are playing than you've made the right choice, whichever modes you applied to the chords.
So, when improvising I would certainly consider a mixolydian over Bb7 and ionian over Eb as in a usual V I in the key of Eb, but I would also try an Eb lydian and see what comes out....or also a lydian b7 over Bb7.
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I think there are misperceptions about this tune that have been passed along. I believe the first chord to be G Minor, not major. Couldn't swear to it, but I think that may have been what Van Heusen wrote. It's in keeping with the lyric, anyway, which is kind of sad. Try 2 beats apiece of Gmin, D/F#, FMin 13, Bb 13/E---if that's not too fancy.
I definitely would lose that AbMaj7. I don't care how many people play it. I think it's vanilla, and I am going to go with Van Heusen going to an Eb7 instead. Myself, I use that Eb13 (4 beats) to set up Ab Maj7#11 (4 beats) in the next bar, delaying the A min7 and creating some tension---but that's me.
Same principle could apply to the C minor part (bar 8, I think): Bb Maj7 to Bb13 (4 beats apiece) before AbMaj7 (4 beats) in the next bar, AMin7-D7b9 (2 beats apiece) in the next.
Just some thoughts. You don't have to agree...Last edited by fasstrack; 09-01-2016 at 11:41 AM.
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Thanks for sharing. This is really good for me, a stepping stone between where I am at and the masters. I will be analysing on the weekend.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
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Thanks for sharing. This is really good for me, a stepping stone between where I am at and the masters. I will be analysing on the weekend.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
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I wonder if anyone has tracked down the original sheet music? Originally Posted by fasstrack
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