December 2015 - Stella By Starlight

**Irez87** · 12-24-2015, 04:01 PM

I have to fill in the harmony with actual chords to make this work.

Listen to that Stan Kenton cut, Bill Holman is a very interesting arranger. He's my favorite, I got into him in college.

I have to record another cut before the month is over.

destinytot · 12-24-2015, 04:27 PM

Found this video of Barry Harris looking at Stella:

**Irez87** · 12-25-2015, 09:51 AM

Swinging, as always, Mr. Hep.

I must say, you have become the master around these parts at playing jazz that actually makes people want to get up and dance again.

That's no small feat, brotha.

I have time to read about Margaritas for once. I'll have to hit you up for all of the historical references.

**NSJ** · 12-25-2015, 01:35 PM

Well, I was finally able to do a quick rubato version. The recording levels are way too low, I am a Luddite, recording is intimidating to me, I think there are some limiters someone put in on my H6 (it was used to record a live show by my friend for his band). Anyway...better or for worse--the latter, of course, which means back to the ol drawing board. I missed some key target notes at the end, tried to use diminished harmony, also Gm6 and Gbm6.

Tried to.

**Hep To The Jive** · 12-25-2015, 01:51 PM

Thanks Irez and Wizard!

Irez, you're back! Glad to see ya here, I saw your thread about piano players, and I think I know the inspiration behind it , hahaha. Prolly the same one that made me stop going to that jam session around where I live, because what's the point?

**Irez87** · 12-25-2015, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Thanks Irez and Wizard!

Irez, you're back! Glad to see ya here, I saw your thread about piano players, and I think I know the inspiration behind it , hahaha. Prolly the same one that made me stop going to that jam session around where I live, because what's the point?

Dude, I am around. We should play again. Winegasm has an open jam now...

And yes, that pianist

The key word is was Kenny G.'s pianist. That dude needs to work on listening and then he'd be on a whole nother level. Right now, he is ridiculous, but think of what he could be...

Whatever.

Hit me up, gangstar!

**lawson-stone** · 12-25-2015, 05:42 PM

Could you post a sound file or something so we could hear the way the analysis prompts you to play fresh lines? I appreciate theory and tradition in jazz, but I also need to hear the theory becoming sound waves. I'd love to hear your handling of the melody and even some improvisation.

Originally Posted by Irez87

Not necessarily a defensive argument, more so another legitimate perspective that is often silenced by "traditional" theory.

Outlining the changes only works if you know how it all fits together computationally. I've been taking lessons with musicians who don't play the guitar and that's the take away. There's good reason why Wes's solos always sounded above and beyond Pat Martino and others. Wes understood the concept of composition and development. He knew how to tell a story. You can certainly do that by grounding yourself in the changes, but there is much much more to music than outlining changes.

Bach was beautiful because he knew how to evoke tension and release and develop a composition. He wasn't beautiful because he simply knew how to "outline changes"

However, outlining changes is not easy. I agree that you have to do that as well.

Try to outline the changes while thinking of the home key

In Bbmajor:

Em7b5: E G Bb D --> #11 6 R 3

A7b9: A C# E G Bb --> 7 b3 #11 R

Cm7: C Eb G Bb --> 9 11 6 R

F7: F A C Eb --> 5 7 9 11

Fm7: F Ab C Eb --> 5 b7 9 11 (see what happened to the 7?)

Bb7: Bb D F Ab --> R 3 5 b7 (almost home)

Ebmaj: Eb G Bb D --> 11 6 R 3

Ab7: Ab C Eb Gb --> b7 9 11 b6 (flirting with Bb minor, I love this cadence)

Bbmajor: Home

I just get peeved when I see other people's perspectives, when I've studied the tradition (in college and beyond), and when I understand the theory... but I offer a different perspective and it gets shot down. Especially when this is a perspective I've learned from other top musicians. I want to share something that helped me move past my musical barriers. This analysis is a huge part of that.

Not saying that to you, Matt. Guitar, just a general plea to the forum.

**Irez87** · 12-25-2015, 08:12 PM

I definitely could, lawson-stone.

The last pod cast I did was proving that Giant Steps and all jazz revolves (orbits) around one macro key center. I sung solfege and outlined chords by relating everything to B major.

I could do the same, and have the drone be very faint.

I did the process before and got mixed results, so I need the forum's help with the next podcast

My notes were:

1. Don't leave the drone on the entire pod cast

2. Talk louder

3. Sing or don't sing (my voice ins't great, can you stomach that?)

4. Play lines based off of the concept

What else should I do? I have fun doing these pod cast things, but they take time. I want them to be helpful. I also want them to introduce people to new ideas. However, I don't want to assume that same pedantic role that I've often taken when discussing ear training. That's my fault, I accept that. I just want to give another perspective.

You guys decide, your input will tell me how to plan the Stella pod cast. Honestly, the pod cast helps me learn the tune.

That last cut was really rough because it was improvised. I'm not happy with it. Too choppy, no drive. I tried to think of the guitar as a big band orchestra. I want to prove that the guitar can be just as versatile as the piano.

By the way, Bill Holman. Check him out! Great big band arranger!

**targuit** · 12-26-2015, 07:08 AM

I am actually learning this song this early morning before dawn. I have never really studied Stella, but what a genial composition! I created a transcription from a lead sheet of the chords, melody and lyrics, then transposed down to a comfortable vocal key. I ended up in Eb for the intro verse - "Have you seen Stella by Starlight....". Then, the key of F for the verse - "The song a robin sings..."

Although I start from a lead sheet as "Eb - Gm7 / Fm7 .... " and melody line, I put in some block chords for me to improvise off. This is where these notation programs like Sibelius really help in terms of rehearsing the song, the melody and accompaniment as well as improvising over the tune.

Funny that I have "known" this song forever but never really learned it. Beautiful tune. I'll try to record something soon.

destinytot · 12-26-2015, 07:49 AM

I've had a breakthrough with something which, for anyone with formal training, may seem obvious. If it is, I apologise.

But my hope is that what I'm learning may help anyone who, like me, is struggling to learn to use it. (I think these things are best demonstrated on video, and I'd be pleased to post one if anyone's interested.)

I'd been worried that I might never manage to apply it to challenging melodic lines - but chromatic solfège has clicked.

I've understood where I was going wrong: I'd been choosing syllables by analysing functions and relating altered notes to the key of their modulation.

I found that so difficult that I'd usually either give up - or do the same with numbers, which I can do, and which is what told me something was wrong... because the way I'd been using it didn't give my ear a good enough reference to be of any practical help.

But when that reference remains the tonic of the home key (i.e. don't define it by temporary/new key centres), it's much easier to use chromatic solfège.

And I think chromatic solfège is more helpful than numbers; I don't consider singing the syllables "sharp e-le-ven" to be a big deal or an inconvenience, but I do think ambiguity is potentially confusing. Numbers seem to be better suited for identifying chord tones and alterations, and chromatic solfège for melodies.

So, for example, in bar 10 of Stella, Fi (tense syllable 'fee') is the 5th of A7b9 - and in bars 29 and 30, Le (lax syllable 'lay') signifies the b5 of Cm7b5 and the b9 of F7b9.

destinytot · 12-26-2015, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

I am actually learning this song this early morning before dawn. I have never really studied Stella, but what a genial composition! I created a transcription from a lead sheet of the chords, melody and lyrics, then transposed down to a comfortable vocal key. I ended up in Eb for the intro verse - "Have you seen Stella by Starlight....". Then, the key of F for the verse - "The song a robin sings..."

Although I start from a lead sheet as "Eb - Gm7 / Fm7 .... " and melody line, I put in some block chords for me to improvise off. This is where these notation programs like Sibelius really help in terms of rehearsing the song, the melody and accompaniment as well as improvising over the tune.

Funny that I have "known" this song forever but never really learned it. Beautiful tune. I'll try to record something soon.

Great stuff!

I've just started using a melodica; a breath-controlled (harmonica-like sound!), polyphonic mini-keyboard - and a perfect complement to guitar (as an ear training reference for singers and non-singers alike).

**Irez87** · 12-26-2015, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

So, for example, in bar 10 of Stella, Fi (tense syllable 'fee') is the 5th of A7b9 - and in bars 29 and 30, Le (lax syllable 'lay') signifies the b5 of Cm7b5 and the b9 of F7b9.

That's exactly it!

Finally, someone is getting hip to how Charlie Banaco's method works.

Keep at it, and you will uncover how music really

works

I gotta own it and say, people will disagree until they really try that method. Until then, to each his or her own.

Just glad to see another person here trying that method of chromatic solfege. That's how I am studying Stella right now!

**NSJ** · 12-26-2015, 11:28 AM

Giving this tune the Barry Harris treatment

Gb-6 (for the F7, or V chord )
G-6 (for the Em7b5 change )
A dim ( also for the dominant function )
Bb6 (tonic)
Abdim ( for the VI7 chord )

Lots of great possibilities.

**Irez87** · 12-26-2015, 12:20 PM

I gotta get the second volume of BH's workshop (the first one is killer!). Alan's book is amazing (and quite the endeavor), but I wanna learn from the source. I am sure that Alan got more out of writing the book and working with BH than anyone who is just studying Alan's book. Get my drift?

Still, I have Alan's book and go through it every now and then after I go through some of GVE's mechanisms for harmony on guitar.

**Irez87** · 12-26-2015, 01:35 PM

Tomorrow, I want to record a cut of me with Wiz's backing track. Some tasty comping there, and if we can't play together... then why not?

**NSJ** · 12-26-2015, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

I gotta get the second volume of BH's workshop (the first one is killer!). Alan's book is amazing (and quite the endeavor), but I wanna learn from the source. I am sure that Alan got more out of writing the book and working with BH than anyone who is just studying Alan's book. Get my drift?

Still, I have Alan's book and go through it every now and then after I go through some of GVE's mechanisms for harmony on guitar.

I ordered Alan's book and it should be coming in the next few days. I also saw the four hour Barry Harris videos for sele-- can you give a concrete assessment of volume one and what it offers that is different then what Alan provides, other than Alan being more guitar specific obviously.

I have already worked through Rony Ben Hurr's materials, and he is also a student of the Barry Harris system. So I am familiar with this already.
I presume that much of Alan's book will be duplicative of Rony's, but I hope it offers a more concrete exclamation of certain aspects .
Thanks .

PS-- we should all await the master classes of Barry Harris's greatest student -Pasquale Grasso!

that guy is out of this world. Absolutely ridiculous how good he is.

**lawson-stone** · 12-26-2015, 03:47 PM

I've not heard your playing, and I am especially challenged by this tune, so I'd love to hear your handling of it. You mentioned something being "rough because it's improvised" but I thought jazz was supposed to be improvised. Anyhow, it would be fun to hear how this actually ends up as played, not as a theory discussion.

Originally Posted by Irez87

I definitely could, lawson-stone.

The last pod cast I did was proving that Giant Steps and all jazz revolves (orbits) around one macro key center. I sung solfege and outlined chords by relating everything to B major.

I could do the same, and have the drone be very faint.

I did the process before and got mixed results, so I need the forum's help with the next podcast

My notes were:

1. Don't leave the drone on the entire pod cast

2. Talk louder

3. Sing or don't sing (my voice ins't great, can you stomach that?)

4. Play lines based off of the concept

What else should I do? I have fun doing these pod cast things, but they take time. I want them to be helpful. I also want them to introduce people to new ideas. However, I don't want to assume that same pedantic role that I've often taken when discussing ear training. That's my fault, I accept that. I just want to give another perspective.

You guys decide, your input will tell me how to plan the Stella pod cast. Honestly, the pod cast helps me learn the tune.

That last cut was really rough because it was improvised. I'm not happy with it. Too choppy, no drive. I tried to think of the guitar as a big band orchestra. I want to prove that the guitar can be just as versatile as the piano.

By the way, Bill Holman. Check him out! Great big band arranger!

**Vladan** · 12-26-2015, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I've not heard your playing, and I am especially challenged by this tune, so I'd love to hear your handling of it. You mentioned something being "rough because it's improvised" but I thought jazz was supposed to be improvised. Anyhow, it would be fun to hear how this actually ends up as played, not as a theory discussion.

Why don't you click on his SoundCloud link, couple of messages above? Accompanying text says "more experimental", or alike. Of all his posts, this one resembles music the most. I could actually listen to it, even enjoy it for a while before headache struck.

**Irez87** · 12-26-2015, 08:36 PM

Oh, Vlad...

Thanks for the compliment.

NSJ,

The first volume of BH's workshop book deals more with single line studies, but there is a short section on his harmony conception as well.

What I meant by improvised is that some of the "movements" (as BH and GVE call them, horizontal harmony is what I subscribe to) are improvised and some of the "chord shapes" are improvised.

I think Steve Herberman refers to the idea of improvised chord forms as "a la carte" comping.

That's why the tempo was slower and rubato at points. I want to work that up to where I can access it on the fly. Right now, when I play jam sessions, I still use a lot of traditional voicings.

For me, not everyone, but for me, I want to comp in a way that is totally responsive to the soloist. That means utilizing counterpoint, progressions within progressions, pedal point, spread voices, closed voices. That also means that nothing is pre-rehearsed. No traditional voicings. Fragments of this, fragments of that. Constant movement. Tension and release done in a chordal manner.

My end goal is to sound like an improvise orchestra. That may sound crazy, but I am doing crazy in depth ear training to get to that point. Give me 10 more years and I will be closer to that goal. I love the journey, so I can be patient. Once I get there... Music making will never be the same.

I gotta be braver with using this concept during performances. It's frightening to improvise all of these chordal movements with partial harmonies, counter point, and all that, on the fly. It's frightening because I make a lot more mistakes that way. I want to default to what I know, but that would go against my point. But I know it will be worth it. My gut tells me so...

**Hep To The Jive** · 12-26-2015, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I like it. Everyone seems to default to the slow, moody, almost bogged-down ballad format, but you've given it a nice up-tempo treatment that reminds me a bit of Birelli Lagrene. Nicely done!

Thanks man! Birelli Lagrene, nice! Here's the thing: most of my gigs are swing/Gypsy jazz/jump blues bound music. In other words I gravitate toward more rhythm driven, steady pulse approach.

I can't help but being influenced by Gypsy players like Birelli, having a bit of Gypsy blood in me

Still, my goal is to absorb more American influences- CC, Wes, Benson, Scofield- that's the jazz I've been listening to mostly. One can only try!

**lawson-stone** · 12-27-2015, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Thanks man! Birelli Lagrene, nice! Here's the thing: most of my gigs are swing/Gypsy jazz/jump blues bound music. In other words I gravitate toward more rhythm driven, steady pulse approach.

I can't help but being influenced by Gypsy players like Birelli, having a bit of Gypsy blood in me

Still, my goal is to absorb more American influences- CC, Wes, Benson, Scofield- that's the jazz I've been listening to mostly. One can only try!

Whatever it is you're trying to do, I'd say you're making excellent progress. I hear you guys and realize just how rudimentary my own playing is. Not putting myself down, just saying that in this group the pitching is pretty fast!

**Irez87** · 12-27-2015, 08:01 PM

here is a post of me playing more hot, i.e. more double time.

Playing convincing double time lines is really hard...

But here is what I got thus far:

I find that my tone diminishes as I shift into double time mode, I don't like that and will be addressing it with my own practice. Dave Frank said in his youtube videos that the end of the double time lines is more important than the content, so I tried to keep that in mind. Improvising double time is really hard on the guitar, because everything has to lay exactly so to make the line fluid. So far my double time is positional, and my normal stuff is more horizontal. I want to get my double time to be more horizontal on the neck, as it makes the melodic content of the line more interesting.

Cannonaball Adderley, IMO, has the best double time sound. His lines seem to cascade and push the time, the double time has a purpose and isn't a flourish. I can't say that about a lot of the other musicians I listen to, especially guitarists. On guitar, double time sounds too percussive. Johnny Smith has a way around it, and I have been studying his method. Anyway, let me know what you think.

**PaulD** · 12-29-2015, 01:25 AM

Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

**Irez87** · 12-29-2015, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by PaulD

Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

Shit, man, that playing hit me deep.

That's some tone you got there and you used it to tell a story. I dunno you personally, but you sound like a deep dude just by the music that you weave. Can you give me some pointers on double time, that's what's been giving me trouble at my stage of the musical journey.