View Poll Results: How many Charlie Parker tunes do you know?
- Voters
- 75. You may not vote on this poll
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I don't know any
16 21.33% -
A couple
32 42.67% -
A half dozen or so
17 22.67% -
At least a dozen, probably a few more
6 8.00% -
Twenty, easy, probably more
4 5.33%
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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03-22-2015 02:16 PM
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But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody hell what???? He can lie and say it sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 03-23-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
Take my previous example of the baseball fans...now yell "white sox and irish catholics suck." Now you're looking at reconstructive dental surgery. There's a difference.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
and i wonder if Broyale actually thinks it sounds like 200mph vomit, or if he was sick enough of people telling him they "are sorry he can't hear it" that he decided to go for a real zinger.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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03-22-2015, 02:41 PM #81destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by henryrobinett
Personally, I don't approve of likening Bird's playing to "note-vomit" because there are polite ways of expressing opinions and explaining views - i.e. ways that don't cause affront to anyone's dignity - and I'd rather see them used.
So the simile goes too far. Likening the man's playing to "note-vomit" shows contempt, and in a manner that's unfair, unnecessary and unsavoury.
(Oh, dear! Now I've made myself queasy...)Last edited by destinytot; 03-22-2015 at 03:00 PM.
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03-22-2015, 02:51 PM #82Dutchbopper GuestOriginally Posted by henryrobinett
By your standards, any opinion is sacred? Mmmm ... I completely and utterly disagree.
DB
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03-22-2015, 02:54 PM #83destinytot GuestIt is not Parker's reputation which is damaged by such talk.
Such talk is unpleasant to read, but how easily it's dissolved!
So... I've recently started using D'Andrea Pro-Plec 351, and I love playing with them. I think I'll start working on a couple of Parker heads this week.
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can we summarize by saying the following?: (1) there is no need to go out of one's way to disparage another's work of art, but (2) on the other hand it's perfectly allowable to do so.
if so, then maybe we can get back to this:
1. Given that "playing Parker heads" has been a staple for serious jazz students for decades now, what do we think of the merits and drawbacks of doing so?
2. Is it time to supplement Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)
3. Is it time to replace Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)
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Good questions, FF.
As far as I'm concerned, almost everything about the jazz language, rhythmically and harmonically--or at least the first things any player should be learning, are right there in Parker. And while his stuff is a technical challenge, it's also straightforward enough that even a beginner can see what's going on in a lot of it...so in my opinion, its a perfect learning tool...
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Which is a shame, but there it is. Actually I can understand someone finding Bird hard going, I did at first. I would be more concerned about the whole 'not liking solos/improvisation' thing, yet wanting to play jazz. It's a bit of a roadblock.
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Why not just ignore the vomit comment and get back to the OP's topic?
Maybe a sub-forum should be created to complain about other members. (Mostly kidding, but I wish it were so, so I could follow the topics without seeing the gripes.)Last edited by KirkP; 03-22-2015 at 04:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by KIRKP
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Back on topic a bit here, one handy thing about playing Parker tunes is of course that once past the tricky head, generally it's either blues or rhythm changes. So if you can nail those 2 progressions, you can (in theory) tackle a lot of Parker tunes.
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03-22-2015, 04:46 PM #90Dutchbopper Guest
Ironically, I just posted a video interview of Jesse van Ruller in the "players" forum in which he states that his taste developed "backwards in time" and then went forward again. When Jesse van Ruller started his studies at the Hilversum conservatory, he actually disliked bebop and mainstream jazz guitar and had no clue about traditional jazz. He checked out a gig of his future teacher (Wim Overgaauw) but did not like it much. He was more into Scofield. Until he found out where it all came from. He had to look a bit further than his nose was long (Dutch expression).
DB
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
And you're an apologist for that? And that's ok why? Cuz he's not a member of this pathetic forum?!? lol. Or is it because the cat is dead?!?
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Nobody is denying him his right to free speech. He's welcome to say whatever he wants. Just don't expect people to take it lightly when someone comes into a charlie parker thread and compares his music to vomit.
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Soapbox alert ...
DB: Thanks very much for the clips. I'm sure I'll watch every one of them more than once. What better way for a guitarist to see Parker interpreted on guitar!?
Broyale: Just for the record, I don't agree with you about Parker, but I'm not upset with you either. You have been honest and courageous, and as an aspiring artist, you need to keep that voice alive inside you. OTOH I don't see how you can get the full benefit of this community without being more smoothly integrated into it, and that means not pushing peoples' buttons when you can find a way around them. Others have already pointed out ways to do this. Regardless of who is right or wrong, taking it easy on people pays off in the long run, so I hope you view caring about other members' feelings as winning - which it is - and not as capitulating.
Everyone: There has been an avalanche of poor manners in this thread. Poor manners are never necessary, and they never enhance the way we come across because they are simply not cool. If you think Broyale is a troll then report him. He had a small platform until we created a big platform for him.
Finally, this is a public forum, and whether we like it or not there are young people tuning in with no other example than the one we set. As you know, they don't see the whole us, but only what we write. So please give some weight to writing with the voice of a father they would like to know face-to-face, and not with the voice of an ill-tempered man at the other end of the internet. You will capture their attention better, teach them more effectively about Charlie Parker, and teach them about a lot more too.
Soapbox clear
Thanks for listening guys and apologies in advance if I put anyone off. You can throw e-bricks at me now if you want to, but I hope we can be better colleagues than that.
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03-22-2015, 08:00 PM #95destinytot Guest
So, Parker heads: it now seems to me that learning to play some is a rite of passage, in which case resistance is futile. Better to embrace it.
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Originally Posted by destinytot
All jokes aside, I'm not the biggest Charlie Parker fan, but here and there I'd come across his solos that just so cooool! Like on Dizzy';s Atmosphere, right after the head... wow, the best, perfect solo! That one I actually learned and enjoyed for fun!
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..., soooo, ignoring the side show, what I'd like to know is, do the peeps here get more out of Parker heads, or the solos?. I never understood where people say all the best vocab is in the heads. A lot of my fave Parker vocab is in the solos.
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I think that the heads are just as valuable as the solos, a lot of it is the same language.
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To (humbly) clarify my statements, then back away from this thread to practice,
What I meant by "note-vomit" (not literal vomit), is that when I listen to Parker's music, all I hear is notes on notes on notes with nothing for me to latch on to like, for instance, that bitchin' GB solo on Red Clay. His music always felt more like exercises to me. When I was in school, we watched a video of Greg Fishman and some lady singing a Parker head and while it was impressive from a technical sense of someone being able to nail it vocally, I was looking around like, "this sounds like gibberish" to me. Someone at work asked me if I felt that way, then why do I like Giant Steps, well, it should be obvious. Giant Steps is awesome and it makes me wanna sing it, some tunes don't. Someone mentioned that learning Parker solos are a rite of passage, and I would agree, I just see his music as technical exercises to master, nothing I would be inclined to sing or anything. I do realize that he kinda had to play like that considering what he went through just to be able to get on the bandstand and make it through a set without someone throwing a cymbal at him (allegedly).
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Originally Posted by Broyale
Starting a phrase late
Yesterday, 11:19 PM in Improvisation