Blue bossa & melodic scales

[John Curran]

I like when such a simple tune brings up such diverse answers, must be the nature of Jazz. Is Funnyval correct?? C minor and Db Major take care of it??

Yes. Even simpler are Eb major and Db major.

john

[Ronen]

Can you elaborate on "playing the changes"?
It will be helpful to have example on Blue Bossa

Ronen

[Jake Hanlon]

"playing the changes"

Creating a single note line that outlines the harmonic progression through correct voice leading.

[Ronen]

Can you give example on blue bossa

[Jake Hanlon]

I could, but I think it's a pretty universal thing that has probably been explained on this forum a dozen times already.

[gravitas]

Can you elaborate on "playing the changes"?
It will be helpful to have example on Blue Bossa

Ronen

Here is a topic I posted a while back that should satisfy any questions you have:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...g-changes.html

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me

[Breezy]

My last offering on this:
Ronen this may be the easiest way to do changes on a m7b5 progression.
Most of us have a few dandy regular 2/5/1 progressions. Good.

Now for let's say, Blue Bossa, the move is--Dm7b5-G7b9-Cm7. Right.
Now have the band play those chords and you simply play your favorite 2/5/1 lick in the relative major: Eb.
So you play your familiar Fm7/Bbalt/Eb. Extensions and subs and all.
What works in the rel major almost always works in the rel minor.
If the song is in Fm.....Gm7b5-Calt(Bmm) --Fm7.
A. Breeze

[Goofsus4]

I'd never played Blue Bossa before and after reading this thread I got curious. I've been playing it the last couple of days now. What a great song. I like how it lends itself very well to moving from melody and melody embellishment to full on improv at will. It's definitely a good song to blow over and just have fun.

[bob32069]

Yes. Even simpler are Eb major and Db major.

john

That is by far the easiest way to think about it.

[Goofsus4]

Can you give example on blue bossa

Play the melody.

Seriously though, if you take the melody line and analyze the notes being played as intervals of the chords as they come and go, you will see a perfect demonstration of playing through the changes. The trick is to duplicate that with your original lines. In general, if you construct a line that uses intervals of the chord that's currently playing, then resolves into the next chord via first hitting the 3rd of the upcoming chord the listener will hear the distinct change in tonality and interpret your line and moving with the changes, or through the changes. There are obviously a lot of other ways to connect, but I believe that usually works every time. I don't have my guitar in front of me, but I think the part of the melody line of Blue Bossa (that is how I have heard it played) that starts on the Cm7 and ends on the Fm7 resolves in that unique two note ending that represents the b3 and root of the Fm7. That b3 is the first note that is played right as the chord changes, right? I'm rambling, though, and may be wrong. But I think the concept is valid.

[funnyval]

Yes. Even simpler are Eb major and Db major.

I think I understand your concept; Cm is the relative minor of Eb. But is that really making it simpler?

Joe Pass once wrote an article on playing minor tunes. He simplified basic chord and scale sounds into three categories

* minor: has a b3 in it
* major: has a natural 3
* dominant: has both the natural 3 and b7 (this includes altered, diminished, and augmented)

When soloing, any of the scales from within each category can be freely substituted for each other. So for example in the minor category, the natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor are interchangeable basic scales (as Matt and others have suggested here).

The important point is that the minor category has the b3. After that he did not really think in terms of separate minor scales, but in terms of sounds that he heard. For example the A and B natural notes that give nice color to the Cm sound.

Isn't it easier to hear the important b3 sound (Eb in this example) as coming from C minor, rather than the Eb scale where it is the root? Then isn't it easier to relate the A and B natural notes as 6 and 7 from Cm rather than as #11 and #5 from Eb?

Another important thing for me is that minor keys have a very different personality than major keys. For example in Cm, the dominant chord is G7. In Eb, the dominant chord is Bb7 and G7 is not a diatonic chord. So even though Eb is the relative major of Cm, doesn't thinking in Eb for C minor tunes put you in a very different harmonic scheme?

[Ronen]

Here is a topic I posted a while back that should satisfy any questions you have:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...g-changes.html

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me

Thanks,
Great information and very helpful!

Ronen

[Ronen]

Dear friends,

So what I learnt here?...allot.

I like the sound of melodic (more than harmonic) so I tried to push it... I Will use it over minor, Cm. not a must over 2/5/1. Right

I lerant that guide-tone, play the changes, is better to focus on if you don't want your solo to sound like exercises.

I learnt that KISS should be my attidute, [KISS=Keep It Simple Stupid!]. Why to use so many scales?

Goofsus4 raised KISS idea, to use blue bossa melody to find the guided tones.

Going to do homework, to find blue bossa guide tones

Thank you all great jazzers peoples.

Ronen

[Electric Larry]

funnyval, you all make good points, but don't be afraid to play pentatonic
or the blues scale. For some reason some guy's think it simple and not jazz
enuff' to play. Sometimes it's a much better choice. Have you ever heard
of "The K.I.S.S. Principal"? Anyway I see the Cmin as vi, and Fmin as ii, G7
as III7 alt.(Phr+3) and Dmin7b5 as vii. All are in the key Eb., but I'll always
say, "It's all what you want to hear"!!...It's jazz. Your the artist, it's your
canvass. The only rule is; there aren't any rules. Did you read the article
on Santana? About the "Wonderment" of improvising. Dec. Guitar Player.
This is what all the great guitarist have. I've seen it happen and it blows
your mind. I saw, opened for the Glass Harp and saw Phil Keaggy do it. I
saw The Mahavishnu Orchestra, John McLauglin do it, I saw Scofield, Holdsworth,
Pat Martino do it, Return to Forever do it. It's a whole lot more
than flashing a bunch of scales. It's about being a vessel for the energy
to flow thru. It's magic. It really is. "Love, devotion, surrender." To me this is the
most important part. Really the only thing. The technical stuff will take care
of itself. This is a subject that seems to get overlooked quite a bit. Really....
not ever talked about. Any thoughts on this??

Larry

[John Curran]

So even though Eb is the relative major of Cm, doesn't thinking in Eb for C minor tunes put you in a very different harmonic scheme?

No. They are the same notes. Whether you center your ideas around Eb or Cmi is up to you, but my point was that they are same notes and key centers.
I could and often do play Ab lydian over Dmi7(b5)-G7, yet I'm still playing the same notes, I'm still in Eb. Or Cmi.

john

[Sailor]

I want to think about this like John - Its easier for me to relate to ONE key signature whether major, minor lydian, whatever.....you can emphasize any feeling, Maj or min but the notes from do-do or la-la are still the same.

Sailor

[Breezy]

I had trouble creating melodic lines just plugging in a mode or two. Also using the standard rule of using the Major scale notes 1/2 above the m7b5.
So to jump start my ear, I did what I said. Play already established 2/5's in the rel major. YEs, It was awkward at first, jumping to that key, so I picked my favorite sounds and re-located them to a friendly place on the neck.

If you are a 'mode' guy or gal....God bless you and play on. If you are a 'scale guy or gal, God bless and play on. Everyone learns differently. Especially on the subject of m7b5. Maybe we should just copy the fav licks of the Masters. (Or Tacit those passages
Good luck to us all. And to all Goodnight.
Breezy

[Electric Larry]

Breezy,
I'm not very good on the P.C....but I'll give this a try (G..4th str.5th fr.)slide 1/2 step to Ab..then play (C..3rd. str.5th fr.) then (D...3rd. str.
7th. fr.) then (F...2nd. str. 6th.fr.) then (Ab...1st. str. 4th. fr.) then
(C...1st. str. 8th fr.) end on ( Bb 1st st 6th fr.) It also works o Bb9.
It's a min 7b5 arp starting on the b5. Ending on Bb. So you have G
sliding to Ab-C-D-F-Ab-C-Bb.It's easy to play. One of the thing's
I picked up from old Holdsworth record. F and D diminished arps. work
good too. The scales and modes are good learning tools, but learn
them then forget them. The music goes by too quickly to think about them. Playing 1/2 above Dmin7b5 is Eb Maj. which is the parent key of
the song. It works good. Try using the chord tones too.

Larry

[Breezy]

Breezy,
I'm not very good on the P.C....but I'll give this a try (G..4th str.5th fr.)slide 1/2 step to Ab..then play (C..3rd. str.5th fr.) then (D...3rd. str.
7th. fr.) then (F...2nd. str. 6th.fr.) then (Ab...1st. str. 4th. fr.) then
(C...1st. str. 8th fr.) end on ( Bb 1st st 6th fr.) It also works o Bb9.
It's a min 7b5 arp starting on the b5. Ending on Bb. So you have G
sliding to Ab-C-D-F-Ab-C-Bb.It's easy to play. One of the thing's
I picked up from old Holdsworth record. F and D diminished arps. work
good too. The scales and modes are good learning tools, but learn
them then forget them. The music goes by too quickly to think about them. Playing 1/2 above Dmin7b5 is Eb Maj. which is the parent key of
the song. It works good. Try using the chord tones too.

Larry

I'm not good at all trying to talk jazz on usenets either. But I really appreciate your giving me your info, Larry. I haven't put it to the fretboard but it sounds like somehting I will like!
Thanks
Breezy

[Electric Larry]

Breezy, I met John McLauglin in 1970. I had just started playing, and was
playing in a blues band. We went to see "The Mahavishnu Orchestra".
Needless to say we were overwhelmed. We new "The Glass Harp" who
opened the show, and they got us back stage. Well they didn't stickaround. John McLauglin saw us and invited us into their dressing
room. They we very spiritual and asked us to join them in a kind of
communion, a breaking of bread of sorts. I started asking him all kinds
of questions and he was very humble and treated me like his little
brother. I asked him how long he had been playing and he said, earthly
or spiritually. I said either way. He said earthly about 25 yrs. and spiritually about 3 days, a drop in a bucket of eternity, but he said to
get every lick off of everybody I could. It didn't matter if it was a horn,
piano whatever. He said borrow, but don't steal. Meaning to learn it and
make it my own, and don't try to sound like someone else. Try to sound
like yourself. That was great advice. I never could quite learn a lick, so
I would misinterperate it, and I would get frustrated, but something good
came out of it. I developed a style that was built on misinterpretations.

[funnyval]

No. They are the same notes. Whether you center your ideas around Eb or Cmi is up to you, but my point was that they are same notes and key centers.
john

The C natural minor and Eb major scales do contain the same notes, as they share the same key signature (maybe this is what you meant by key center). But they have different tonal centers. Minor key tunes are not just major key tunes that start and end on the related minor chord. The melody, harmony and chord progressions reflect the different personality of the different tonal center.

A large part of what creates a minor tonal center are the additional notes added by the harmonic and melodic minor scales. These additional notes are not contained in the Eb major scale. So to me thinking of a C minor tune as Eb major is over-simplifying the tonal aspects. As many wise people over time have said ""Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

But whatever works for each of us is great.

Electric Larry, I love the Santana cover story "Multi-Dimensional Miracles" that celebrates the power of intangibles and wonderment. One of the best GP articles ever. This thread started out discussing melodic minor scale application, but yes, blues and pentatonic scales are always an option if you hear them. As far as KISS, I fail to see how thinking like you are in Eb but over G7 play Phrygian+3 is simpler than playing any of the C minor scales when you are in a Cm tune.

Anyway, like Carlos says, go for the wa and play from the heart. As he quotes Einstein, "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

[andypiano]

hi everyone,
while being a pianist, i really like this forum and i'd enjoy contributing to it from time to time, as the topics discussed here don't seem to be too guitar-specific. hope i don't sound to german (where i'm from).

here is what i think about blue bossa:
besides bars 9 thru 12, everything (melody + harmony) relates to the key of C minor. the basic pool of notes is represented by the C minor scale (which has 3 flats basically). subsequently it could be used for improv on those 12 bars of the tune (as stated by funnyval).

alternatively you could relate to the chord changes, playing C aeolian, F dorian, D locrian, G phrygian (*poor man's altered scale*) etc, without sounding any different - besides that thinking in terms of various modes might cause you to hit the chord root on beat 1 (which might be desirable for the bass player only...).

my point is, that the notes of that one scale have different relationships to the individual chords of the progression.

example: on the Cm chord I would tend to avoid the note Ab of the scale as it is a rather sharp dissonance to the chord. in fact, i'd prefer to think i save this note for the next chord, as it is a great one to sound on Fm, allowing me to show what's going on harmonically.

the next chord (Dm7b5) is very much the same sound as Fm (with a different bass note).

when it comes to G7alt, i'd avoid to play the note C and flatten it to Cb (or B - the 3rd of G7). this gives me the notes Ab, Bb and B (which are part of the G altered scale), while avoiding the note C gives me again something to lead to on the next chord (Cm).

so, in general, i would suggest a *single scale* concept (for these 12 bars of course) spiced with bits of *playing the changes* or *guide tone*.

best
andy

[Sailor]

nice comment Andy. I don't think you can be "too German" by the way.

Sailor

[Breezy]

That was a load of work from Gravitas and Ronen, One can tell they are studied musicians and know their theory. It would be hard to get a better opening treatus from a University class. Thank you to you both.

If you are one of the guitarists that are still confused, try this:
put nothing but Parker and Wes Montgomery on your ipod and walk a mile every day listening to nothing but your programmed jazz. And then listen to it some more.....as one NTS instructor said, "till you puke." Really. That much. Great osmosis has taken place for most of us. Do you now notice little things like...Parker had a propensity to play sharp? I got to where I missed it when it wasn't there.
Now pick up your guitar. Play a melody you know....maybe something off the ipod. Tell me. what are you hearing that you didn't hear before?
Do you like it?
If so, NOW---it's time to APPLY the knowledge of Ronen and Gravitas.
What is the name of it. How does it work in this song? What is it's relationship with the surrounding chords? (You do want to be able to play this sound whenever you like, right?) How can I use this in another song? etc. Now it will stick with you forever.

This stuff I've mentioned usually sounds offensive and stupid to studied musicians. It's not meant to be. We are just trying to keep up the best way we know.

NOTE THIS: This is NOT a shot at Ronen or Gravitas. Everyone learns differently. I was one of those who didn't get the formal education and had to learn the names of the things I liked afterwards. NOT a good way. I am not recommending it except to those that can't for whatever reason can't study at a University, Conservatory or even a good teacher.
Be clear--it's best, if you can find a way, search out and find a teacher you trust and can relate to and then work you ass off.
I hope one day we all get to the point that was alluded to earlier by paraphrasing Parker, "Know the music, know your instrument, then forget all about that shit and just play!!"
An Old Student of Guitar, with best intentions.
Breezy

[gravitas]

None taken... You got to pay your dues if you want to play those blues. Sequencing bop licks is a great way to fill out your bag