Bebop Heads (#4) - Moose the Mooche

[pamosmusic]

Effortless. I feel like I am stuck in mud after seeing yours and Danil's. Not sure how I can increase the tempo. Tried that slow slow fast idea yesterday and couldn't play it at all at double time. Maybe need to break it down to smaller bits.

(also thank you, you’re very kind … in the topic of the long term project, I very distinctly remember learning this tune for the first time living with my parents while we were moving back from New York and that was almost four years ago. It’s the hardest Bird tune that I still know and it requires regular maintenance to stay together. There are some harder ones for sure, but i find it harder than, for example, Donna Lee. So be patient and it’ll get there.)

[charlieparker]

The million dollar question …. What was your metronome marking?

(also yes … always smaller bits.)

Wasn't using a metronome, I'd guess I was at about 80 bpm for the slow.

[pamosmusic]

Wasn't using a metronome, I'd guess I was at about 80 bpm for the slow.

well there’s your problem.

metronome for sure.

If 80 is too fast just move it down.

ALSO … it’s okay for the fast one to be a mess. That’s why you only play it once. Never twice. You want to teach your hands what they need to feel like to play that fast but you don’t want to practice in the mistakes.

Also when you’re playing slow, focus on playing with a light touch. Sometimes, playing quiet is a good way to trick your hands into relaxing quite a lot.

[Mick-7]

I feel like I am stuck in mud after seeing yours and Danil's. Not sure how I can increase the tempo.

Watching the video of your rendition, I'm seeing a problem with your technique: too much motion. Moving your arms too much, bending your wrist too much and/or changing it from a relatively vertical position to a bent position. Playing fast requires economy of motion of hands and wrist, position changes need to be smooth and fluent. You'll never get there with your current technique.

I'm not trying to be critical, just being candid, I think you would benefit from an in-person lesson with a professional guitarist to critique your playing technique. Correcting the flaws in your technique could dramatically improve your playing and make it less stressful. It may only take a lesson or two from an experienced teacher to sort out the problem, and it could save you many months or even years of frustration.

[Mick-7]

Very good, but we'll have to subtract a few points from your score for not playing the 16th note triplet.

Yea, it is sort of implied will continue working on it. Triplets don't tolerate being filmed -- today I took the guitar the first time and played the whole thing twice in a row cleanly also minding those triples.

I take it back, the 16th note triplet is practically impossible to articulate at about 170bpm (which is my target tempo), it's possible but not at all practical.

[pamosmusic]

Watching the video of your rendition, I'm seeing a problem with your technique: too much motion. Moving your arms too much, bending your wrist too much and/or changing it from a relatively vertical position to a bent position. Playing fast requires economy of motion of hands and wrist, position changes need to to smooth and fluent. You'll never get there with your current technique.

I'm not trying to be critical, just being candid, I think you would benefit from an in-person lesson with a professional guitarist to critique your playing technique. Correcting the flaws in your technique could dramatically improve your playing and make it less stressful. It may only take a lesson or two from an experienced teacher to sort out the problem, and it could save you many months or even years of frustration.

It sounds like you’re referring to the left hand?

[pamosmusic]

I take it back, the 16th note triplet is practically impossible to articulate at about 170bpm (which is my target tempo), it's possible but not at all practical.

ooooo beg to differ

[Mick-7]

It sounds like you’re referring to the left hand?

Yes, fretting arm, hand and wrist.

[Mick-7]

ooooo beg to differ

We'll see what I end up with, but I may not want to spend the time needed to execute it (the 16th note triplet).

[pamosmusic]

Yes, fretting arm, hand and wrist.

Oh yeah, okay. Actually I’d agree there.

Mr Parker — permission to offer technical advice not entirely relevant to the topic of the thread?

[Mick-7]

Oh yeah, okay. Actually I’d agree there.

Mr Parker — permission to offer technical advice not entirely relevant to the topic of the thread?

It's very relevant to playing bebop, it will reveal your technical deficiencies.

[pamosmusic]

I guess that’s fair. Mostly I’m just trying not to be annoying I guess.

[charlieparker]

Oh yeah, okay. Actually I’d agree there.

Mr Parker — permission to offer technical advice not entirely relevant to the topic of the thread?

Sure. That's why we do this isn't it?

[pamosmusic]

Sure. That's why we do this isn't it?

Okay cool.

With the left hand thing, notice the way your thumb moves from the back with what Christian would call the more supinated wrist position with the hand open toward the ceiling, up to the top of the neck with the more pronated wrist position with the palm a little closed and tilted in toward the fretboard. The latter is what gives the fingers the more violin position.

Both are good and it’s not crazy for people to combine the two. I usually use that more classical supinated thing in the upper positions and the more violin position in the lower frets. But the goal of either is to have the wrist straight, by which we mean you can draw a straight line (more or less) from the top of the knuckle to the elbow.

What happens when you bounce around a bunch of is that your wrist finds itself bouncing between extension (typist wrist with your palm pressed against the neck) and flexion (that deep curve in the wrist like when you’re making shadow dogs on the wall with a flashlight.

both of those reduce your mobility and can also make you tire out much more quickly.

Spend five minutes warming up using this exercise: Fretting Hand Technique: Control Flying Fingers with this Exercise!

It’s generally used to control flutter fingers do it super slowly and focus on that thumb position and the relaxed straight wrist. Dont spend an hour on it and don’t sweat that stuff while you’re playing. Just take a few minutes on it in isolation and take breaks from your regular playing when you feel tired or sore. It’ll start to correct to a more consistent position (whichever you choose) in time.

[Mick-7]

Close to my top speed at this time without major screw-ups....

Moose the Mooche, first 16 bars @172bpm - Box.com

[pamosmusic]

Close to my top speed at this time without major screw-ups....

Moose the Mooche, first 16 bars @172bpm - Box.com

Kind of rushed the last measure or two into the B section?

And a very interesting backing track.

[Mick-7]

Kind of rushed the last measure or two into the B section?

And a very interesting backing track.

Not sure.... that was a Beat Buddy Mini track, maybe a bit too busy, the drum/cymbal accents don't always line up with measures.

[AllanAllen]

Guys, this is a tricky head, not Now's the Time. You need metronomes. Not some break beat drum machine, no tapping your foot or guessing time.

Tock click click click, tock click click click.

[pamosmusic]

Not sure.... that was a Beat Buddy Mini track, maybe a bit too busy, the drum/cymbal accents don't always line up with measures.

It sounded like a straight eighths faux Latin thing, no?

[charlieparker]

Okay cool.

With the left hand thing, notice the way your thumb moves from the back with what Christian would call the more supinated wrist position with the hand open toward the ceiling, up to the top of the neck with the more pronated wrist position with the palm a little closed and tilted in toward the fretboard. The latter is what gives the fingers the more violin position.

Both are good and it’s not crazy for people to combine the two. I usually use that more classical supinated thing in the upper positions and the more violin position in the lower frets. But the goal of either is to have the wrist straight, by which we mean you can draw a straight line (more or less) from the top of the knuckle to the elbow.

What happens when you bounce around a bunch of is that your wrist finds itself bouncing between extension (typist wrist with your palm pressed against the neck) and flexion (that deep curve in the wrist like when you’re making shadow dogs on the wall with a flashlight.

both of those reduce your mobility and can also make you tire out much more quickly.

Spend five minutes warming up using this exercise: Fretting Hand Technique: Control Flying Fingers with this Exercise!

It’s generally used to control flutter fingers do it super slowly and focus on that thumb position and the relaxed straight wrist. Dont spend an hour on it and don’t sweat that stuff while you’re playing. Just take a few minutes on it in isolation and take breaks from your regular playing when you feel tired or sore. It’ll start to correct to a more consistent position (whichever you choose) in time.

It will take me a bit to digest this. Will report back afterwards.

Edit, I think I got the gist of it about keeping the wrist straight. Will try and be mindful of this and also try the exercise.

The "shadow dogs" thing seems somewhat unavoidable when playing on the 5th and 6th strings unless I get my guitar neck in a better position.

[charlieparker]

Close to my top speed at this time without major screw-ups....

Moose the Mooche, first 16 bars @172bpm - Box.com

Sounded pretty tight. Nice.

[Mick-7]

The "shadow dogs" thing seems somewhat unavoidable when playing on the 5th and 6th strings unless I get my guitar neck in a better position.

Since you mentioned it, here's my chance to be more annoying - I try to never miss such opportunities.

I think the way you're holding your guitar is promoting that excessive bend in your wrist. Rather than being vertical, your guitar is angled away from your body, which causes you to bend your wrist to reach around it when you play, especially when you fret the lower strings. Not only is this inefficient but it's hard on your wrist.

I'd try holding the guitar in various ways: change your posture, adjust the strap, etc., so that the guitar is more vertical and flat against your body. If you experiment like that, it will help you pinpoint and correct the flaws in your playing mechanics.

[Mick-7]

It sounded like a straight eighths faux Latin thing, no?

It is one of the 5 "jazz" tracks, there are latin beats too, I need to explore it more.

[Mick-7]

For m. 12 I am playing F#-G-Bb-C-Bb-D-Ab. I also don't have that 16th note triplet and a few other small differences.

Ah yes, I forgot about that passage, as noted earlier, the fake books have it wrong. I heard it as you said except beginning with an F natural rather than F#.

Here's my revised fingering for the second 8 bars.... I suspect that a lot of people here would prefer to use their 3rd finger rather than their pinky to play the notes in bar 13.

[pamosmusic]

It will take me a bit to digest this. Will report back afterwards.

Edit, I think I got the gist of it about keeping the wrist straight. Will try and be mindful of this and also try the exercise.

The "shadow dogs" thing seems somewhat unavoidable when playing on the 5th and 6th strings unless I get my guitar neck in a better position.

Alas Mick isn’t wrong about that one either … look in a mirror while you’re fretting those strings. Start angling the headstock upward like you’re trying to point it to the ceiling. As the headstock rises, your wrist will straighten out. That’s why classical guitarists sit with the footstool.

Bringing the guitar toward you can help. A footstool but they’re generally uncomfortable unless you have one made for your body size. A guitar support or raising the strap is a decent move generally.

it’s a tricky one