Bebop Heads (#4) - Moose the Mooche

[AllanAllen]

I started doing Peter's recommendation of slow, slow, slow, double time routine. Lots of progress with that paired with using a metronome (set to 60-70) to hear where notes should land.

I was able to play along with the Parker track, very sadly, but I could do it.

There's good advice here if you listen. Not sure what Bb or Ab you all are talking about.... so I vote move on to the second A section.

[Mick-7]

Six pages in, has the time come for the second A section?

What is the program? Past installments of this study group played 4 bars at a time, but so far everyone has played at least the the first 8 bars.

[Mick-7]

Not sure what Bb or Ab you all are talking about....

It's not important but it's the second half of beat two in measure 7. I have listened to a few recordings and have yet to hear an Ab played. In the Live at Storyville 1953 recording Bird plays a Bb the first time through the head and slurs up from A-Bb (a semitone) the second time around.

More importantly, at faster tempos (than the session with Miles), I have never heard Bird play the Cm triplet in measure 2 (second beat), that's on most lead sheets. So I've been trying to play something that apparently even he can not or will not play at really fast tempos... Oh well, at least it got me to work on my sweep picking.

[pamosmusic]

It's not important but it's the second half of beat two in measure 7. I have listened to a few recordings and have yet to hear an Ab played. In the Live at Storyville 1953 recording Bird plays a Bb the first time through the head and slurs up from A-Bb (a semitone) the second time around.

More importantly, at faster tempos (than the session with Miles), I have never heard Bird play the Cm triplet in measure 2 (second beat), that's on most lead sheets. So I've been trying to play something that apparently even he can not or will not play at really fast tempos... Oh well, at least it got me to work on my sweep picking.

Bird for sure plays it in m10 which is the same phrase second A. He also plays this kind of triplet.

[AllanAllen]

Okay, I heard it as Ab on the Barry Harris one. I was using that because I got tired of waiting through the intro.

[Mick-7]

Bird for sure plays it in m10 which is the same phrase second A. He also plays this kind of triplet.

I believe he plays this in bar 10 - i.e., no triplet.

[pamosmusic]

I believe he plays this in bar 10 - i.e., no triplet.

Someone plays it. Maybe miles. Or maybe I’m crazy.

If it’s Miles I guess you wouldn’t want to play it anyway because he’s bad and Bird never should’ve had him on the session or whatever?

[Mick-7]

Someone plays it. Maybe miles. Or maybe I’m crazy.

If it’s Miles I guess you wouldn’t want to play it anyway because he’s bad and Bird never should’ve had him on the session or whatever?

I stopped listening to that rendition, it was confusing me, but listening again, it does sound like they play a triplet on beat 2, i.e., G-Eb-C.

So either way will work, triplet or straight 8ths (Eb rather than Cm arpeggio), but when Bird plays it faster than the Miles tempo, he doesn't play the triplet, plays it as notated in my previous post.

[charlieparker]

A lot of charts are based on existing ones with only obvious errors corrected (the first illegal RB in the '70s was full of them). Bb seems the logical choice in that passage (although I've stated why Parker may have chosen the Ab).

I heard that Ab some years ago and later discovered that Mark Voelpel included it in his excellent Charlie Parker for Guitar book, released after most of those other lead sheets:

Attachment 130702

I transcribed it as Ab and it sounds great to me. I feel that phrase really pops with the Ab. I will try Bb to see how that sounds, too.

[pamosmusic]

As I said, it's not important, whatever floats your notes. I listened to the Barry Harris clip, he actually repeats the first beat note F (i.e., jumps up to the note D).

I think I prefer what Bird played on one track, which is slurring into the Bb from A below. And Super Sax plays a C# slur to the note D, i.e., F to C#>D.

Mick, I gotta say, the vibe here is getting weird.

[Mick-7]

Mick, I gotta say, the vibe here is getting weird.

It is getting awfully persnickety, isnt it? I'll try to ignore replies that encourage that....

[pamosmusic]

It is getting awfully persnickety, isnt it? I'll try to ignore replies that encourage that....

I was going to say it's maybe getting a little big for its breeches.

[Mick-7]

I found this alternate take of Moose the Mooche, in which the tenor player (Lucky Thompson) rather than Miles plays the head in unison with Bird. It appears to be the same date, with Miles taking a solo but not playing the head. Also, the recording is a semitone higher, in B major rather than Bb, which I'm thinking is a recording anomaly because B major is a difficult key for sax players, i.e., the tape got sped up or slowed down. The tempo is about the same.

[PMB]

I found this alternate take of Moose the Mooche, in which the tenor player (Lucky Thompson) rather than Miles plays the head in unison with Bird. It appears to be the same date, with Miles taking a solo but not playing the head. Also, the recording is a semitone higher, in B major rather than Bb, which I'm thinking is a recording anomaly because B major is a difficult key for sax players, i.e., the tape got sped up or slowed down. The tempo is about the same.

Nice to have a clean head for the track, Mick. I've repitched it back to Bb and isolated bar 7. Clear as a bell that Ab was intended here as the pickup to the 3rd beat so let's take up Peter's suggestion and move on to the second 'A':

[Mick-7]

I must say, I think it's plain silly to slow down the track so much (what is that, 15% of the normal speed or something?!). It has distorted the pitch of the notes and what you're hearing are saxophone intonation discrepancies. Saxophone players intonation tends to be slightly flat in certain registers when they start a phrase. I can hear both an approximate Ab from the tenor player (somewhere between Ab & A) and a Bb played by the alto player, which would be Bird, not surprising that his intonation is better.

[PMB]

Somehow I knew you wouldn't be convinced...

[Mick-7]

PMB, You know what? I think Bird wrote the head in two voices for two horns, many times they play different notes, it's more distinct in this take than the one with Miles. So for a Bb7 chord they might play both Ab & Bb.

[pamosmusic]

Mick this is so weird. Not to be a tool here, but maybe best to be blunt.

You posted your take. It needs work just like everyone else’s. Not sure where the arrogance on this is coming from but it’s off-putting and unhelpful.

We’re like … three pages past your sh** talking of Miles Davis. PMB knows a thing or two. The rest of have ears and the agency to use his track or not. Dial it down.

[PMB]

Here's the isolated note - Ab - from the passage I posted earlier. I normally wouldn't take things this far but your implacable nature is simply irresistible:

Apologies to everyone else. I promise that's my last word on the subject (and most likely my last post in this thread).

[pamosmusic]

Here's the isolated note - Ab - from the passage I posted earlier. I normally wouldn't take things this far but your implacable nature is simply irresistible:

Apologies to everyone else. I promise that's my last word on the subject (and most likely my last post in this thread).

I still don’t believe you.

No wait, actually I think it was that Mick was transposing in his head for trumpet and tenor this whole time and he meant Ab after all.

Cant wait to see where this goes.

[PMB]

I still don’t believe you.

[grahambop]

Personally, I reckon Bird intended there to be an Ab there, I can hear it on the Storyville version which is just Bird playing. (I slowed it down and pitch-corrected it, as the recording was at the wrong pitch.)

Actually on that recording it sounded as if he slurred from Ab to Bb (or even to B natural), but the second note is so minimal that it’s not clear.

In any case, I don’t think it matters, at that tempo it’s just a fast pickup note which is felt rhythmically rather than heard. On some versions they don’t seem to play it at all (e.g. Bud Powell with Curtis Fuller).

I think it’s more important to get the rhythms and accents right than to obsess over one obscure note. I think that’s quite hard to do well on the guitar, it’s certainly what I try to focus on with these bebop tunes.

(I can play Moose the Mooche but not well enough yet, it needs some work!)

[Christian Miller]

It comes across as a ghost note to me

[grahambop]

It comes across as a ghost note to me

I’m scared of it now.

[pamosmusic]

It comes across as a ghost note to me

Now I want to believe.