Dexterity

[James W]

So, what do you do? Like, actually, what do you do in this situation?

Well, as I've already said, you play some but not all the chords.

For the third time now, check out Jens's stuff on youtube.

Here are a couple to be getting along with:

[Mick-7]

I think the vanilla chord changes for Dexterity's A section are: //Bb/F7/Bb/F7/Bb(7)/Eb/Dm6(Dm7-G7)/Cm7-F7//

You may find this useful: Rhythm Changes.pdf

[AllanAllen]

Well, as I've already said, you play some but not all the chords.

For the third time now, check out Jens's stuff on youtube.

Here are a couple to be getting along with:

The best way for me to put this is, Jens doesn't play the kind of jazz I want to play.

Taking the 2nd chord. G, he plays G7b9 and adds the sharp 9 in his comping lick. So he's got the soloist backed into a corner in so many ways. Who's leading the song? It's just a backwards way to comp if you ask me. The soloist should have the option of which 9 they feel. Instead of grabbing a 5 note chord and adding a 6th note.

Listen to Cliff play Billies Bounce over Jens F Blues Backing Track. It's a mess, and it's not Cliff's playing that's making it that way.

[James W]

The best way for me to put this is, Jens doesn't play the kind of jazz I want to play.

Taking the 2nd chord. G, he plays G7b9 and adds the sharp 9 in his comping lick. So he's got the soloist backed into a corner in so many ways. Who's leading the song? It's just a backwards way to comp if you ask me. The soloist should have the option of which 9 they feel. Instead of grabbing a 5 note chord and adding a 6th note.

Listen to Cliff play Billies Bounce over Jens F Blues Backing Track. It's a mess, and it's not Cliff's playing that's making it that way.

Woah, you're actually against using any kind of extensions when comping? And how does playing the ninth back the soloist into a corner, can the soloist foresee that that is the chord that the guitar player in going to play? Heaven forfend that it might produce a clash, I guess... except that much of my favourite aspects of jazz derive from its unpredictable 'clashing' interaction between players.

P.S it might be an idea to transcribe some comping... and listen to Bill Evans et al.

[charlieparker]

So, what do you do? Like, actually, what do you do in this situation?

I think it depends on the style somewhat but what I did on the track I just posted was play basically one chord a measure picking which one I wanted to play when there are 2 chords in the measure.

So say just a Bb on the first measure and either Cm7 or F7 on the next measure.

If you are playing in the swing style with four to the bar it's harder. But guys like Jim Hall leave a lot of space when comping.

[AllanAllen]

I'm against the sound of playing over each other with their heads down. Bill Evans can make it work because he's Bill Evans. We're all hacks compared to him.

It's not that he played a 9th. It's that he played a G7 instead of the G minor and then played BOTH the altered 9ths, which I guess is implying melodic minor over half a bar of Rhythm Changes. Like I said, it's a lot. Or at least, to me, it's a lot.

[bediles]

I'm against the sound of playing over each other with their heads down. Bill Evans can make it work because he's Bill Evans. We're all hacks compared to him.

It's not that he played a 9th. It's that he played a G7 instead of the G minor and then played BOTH the altered 9ths, which I guess is implying melodic minor over half a bar of Rhythm Changes. Like I said, it's a lot. Or at least, to me, it's a lot.

It's not. In any of these situations you can generalize Bb. The more experience you have then you can hear what the soloist is playing or of its someone you play with a lot you'll know what they prefer. Haven't listened to the Jens thing but if it's tasteful then you're good.

What would step over the soloist would be the range btw you and them (usually don't get up in their business) and if you play super busy.

I can still give you some tips on what actually to do. I don't really have any teaching materials available but could give you a few concepts.

[AllanAllen]

I’d appreciate some concepts. Maybe I’m in a “can’t see the forest through the trees” situation.

[James W]

I'm against the sound of playing over each other with their heads down. Bill Evans can make it work because he's Bill Evans. We're all hacks compared to him.

It's not that he played a 9th. It's that he played a G7 instead of the G minor and then played BOTH the altered 9ths, which I guess is implying melodic minor over half a bar of Rhythm Changes. Like I said, it's a lot. Or at least, to me, it's a lot.

It might to you be 'a lot' but it's not incorrect is it? Playing the G with both altered ninths is obviously a real possibility. And I don't see how you can possibly accuse Jens of playing over someone with his head down or something. And I see no reason to dismiss something just because Bill Evans does it (if anything actually, I'd say people ought to push things further than Evans would go, rather than regressing into some easy listening vanilla stuff).

Also, if you'd watched the first three or four minutes of the video I posted of Jens above, he explains how you can simplify the progression in the A section. Wasn't that what you wanted to do?

[bediles]

I’d appreciate some concepts. Maybe I’m in a “can’t see the forest through the trees” situation.

I'll try to put something coherent together tonight.

What voicing types do you know?

[AllanAllen]

It might to you be 'a lot' but it's not incorrect is it? Playing the G with both altered ninths is obviously a real possibility. And I don't see how you can possibly accuse Jens of playing over someone with his head down or something. And I see no reason to dismiss something just because Bill Evans does it (if anything actually, I'd say people ought to push things further than Evans would go, rather than regressing into some easy listening vanilla stuff).

Also, if you'd watched the first three or four minutes of the video I posted of Jens above, he explains how you can simplify the progression in the A section. Wasn't that what you wanted to do?

I had already watched this video, and didn't want to spend any more time with him.

In case you don't know what video I'm talking about. Here's Cliff playing Billies Bounce over Jens F backing track. In my opinion, the comping is all over the melody range.

Like I said, just my opinion. Jens can play circles around me.

I know it's not 2 guys actually playing, and it's not fair to judge him by a decade old backing track, but he's still teaching the same style of comping. A style that sounds nice when you're alone, but when I'm playing with other people, it just feels like I'm all up in their range.

Again, this is personal, and my taste. You don't have to agree, and I'm not trying to change your mind. Just explaining why I'm not taking your advice.

https://youtu.be/xWYxRAxlPUQ?si=P9utABNeINMjDCoJ

(if anything actually, I'd say people ought to push things further than Evans would go, rather than regressing into some easy listening vanilla stuff)

VERY good point, something that I agree with. Kind of in line with Christian's R.C. riffs video, I'm just not ready for it at this time. I want to get a handle on vanilla harmony before I get into post-post modern instagram harmony.

[James W]

Just explaining why I'm not taking your advice.

Dude.

You came along complaining about the number of chords you have to play in the A section of Rhythm Changes. I told you that you don't have to play all the chords putatively contained in the A section, you can leave some out (which, like it or not, is the only way that you're going to simplify comping on it) and I just referenced Jens only really as an authoritative source so you don't think I'm talking nonsense or something. Sure enough, he suggests in the first video of his I posted that you can get rid of the VI and ii chords etc.

What is it about this advice that you're pushing back against?

[AllanAllen]

Dude.

You came along complaining about the number of chords you have to play in the A section of Rhythm Changes. I told you that you don't have to play all the chords putatively contained in the A section, you can leave some out (which, like it or not, is the only way that you're going to simplify comping on it) and I just referenced Jens only really as an authoritative source so you don't think I'm talking nonsense or something. Sure enough, he suggests in the first video of his I posted that you can get rid of the VI and ii chords etc.

What is it about this advice that you're pushing back against?

The part where I should watch another Jens Larsen video.

I can't help the way I am. I've really tried.

[pamosmusic]

Take this as advice from someone who kind of sucks at rhythm changes, but ...

I think shell voicings are the killer.

Try and make single note guide tone lines through it if you can.

Play the whole shell voicings with rhythms on the simplified changes.

Play the shells with no roots through the simplified changes.

Play singles notes on each voice through the simplified changes.

I think that's useful because when you don't have the chops (points at self) to play a lot of chords, then texture changes are hugely useful. Shells, rootless shells, single notes and octaves, and it all kind of comes without learning any new voicings. Just deconstructing and looking at them differently.

The other piece of advice that I think is hugely important is that you have have have to practice fast. Set the metronome for half note 110 or something and see what you can get. You'll get better but you have to do it.

[bediles]

For this particular thing, comping on rhythm changes, it's hard to follow the mantra imitate, assimilate, innovate bc there's not much easy to find RC comping recorded by guitarists. There's plenty I can think of for single notes where the guitar acts as a horn.

My main reccomendation it to go to the music first before doing any exercises. If you go straight to the exercises before copying something you may be stuck floundering around trying to make this music from scratch. Going to the music helps you turn off the intellectual and makes it more of an osmosis process and gives you some shit to play.

Now what to check out?
Frankly, I don't have a choice recording to point you towards (ideally not super burning, good recording quality, accessible etc.) The answer is probably a random sideman record. Maybe someone could chime in here. There's gotta be some Jim Hall I haven't heard. Don't think there's much Bickert other than a weird example with Sonny Grenwhich.

Alternatively, take a not so fast rhythm changes tune (Louis Smith Bakin') and lift the piano rhythms of one chorus and insert your voicings.

For the day job, I practice after I put the kids to bed, maybe only 45 min folks, the most accessible thing I can think of right now is the Barry Galbraith study, Rhythm #1. I'm sure you could find that online and saves you trying to transcribe above your ability level and killing yourself. That comping book is great in general actually. And I'm not a book person. Once you have this down (ideally played with the recording), you have the ability to play SOMETHING musical as an accompaniment and it can serve as a template. From there you can get into voicing types/concepts and voiceleading games etc.

As far as staying out of people's way when comping. There's kinda five main things to consider:
1. Range
2. Tambre
3. Volume/attack
4. Size of the voicing
5. Busyness

If an instrument has a similar tambre to yours, comping in the range they're soloing will clash more (imagine guitar/guitar). But if you change your tone, play less, lighten up on the attack etc. you can get away with playing more in their range. Alternatively, play below them or above (more of an effect) or both with those Lenny Breau voicings. But nice voiceled chords on the middle strings below the 10th fret should be fine. Of they play more, you play less, they play less you play like Ed Bickert.

I check out Jazz education podcasts from time to time to see how this stuff is being taught. This episode is great and describes what others have said in the thread from another perspective (one note comping, how busy to play etc.), worth a listen. Here's a Spotify link:

http://https://open.spotify.com/episode/4YBTSsijmeiPH3YRfFsiCN?si=EKmd-e6SQZy6jtYb7ppuUg

[grahambop]

There's some Jim Hall comping on a rhythm changes tune here. Unfortunately the piano is also comping, but they seem to be panned left and right, with Jim on the left channel, so you could try isolating that side somehow.

[grahambop]

Sonny Rollins ‘The Bridge’ is largely based on rhythm changes. Jim Hall also comps here. Quite minimal though (probably the best approach to take accompanying Sonny Rollins!)

[CliffR]

Nm

[CliffR]

Sonny Rollins ‘The Bridge’ is largely based on rhythm changes. Jim Hall also comps here. Quite minimal though (probably the best approach to take accompanying Sonny Rollins!)

It's weird how he calls it 'The Bridge' and yet plays the A section too!

[grahambop]

I believe he called it The Bridge as a reference to the period when he ‘dropped out’ and practised every day on the Williamsburg Bridge in NY, the album came out after that.

Also I’d never noticed before how similar the 2 tunes are, I don’t know if Sonny got the basic melodic idea from Constellation.

On both tunes it seems Jim Hall mainly rides on one chord (a Bb6 9 it sounds like?) with the occasional F7 thrown in. So doesn’t worry about chasing all the chords in the usual progression. He’s more about playing interesting rhythms on that one chord (it seems to me anyway).

[CliffR]

I believe he called it The Bridge as a reference to the period when he ‘dropped out’ and practised every day on the Williamsburg Bridge in NY, the album came out after that.

Sorry Graham - I was just making a stupid joke.

[grahambop]

Sorry Graham - I was just making a stupid joke.

haha no worries, I did get it!

Actually I used to think the title might have something to do with the bridge of the tune, until I read about his escapades on the real bridge.

[CliffR]

haha no worries, I did get it!

Actually I used to think the title might have something to do with the bridge of the tune, until I read about his escapades on the real bridge.

FWIW, I used to think Rhythm Changes involved the rhythm changing throughout the tune .

[AllanAllen]

I've used this Barney Kessel riff before. From what I could tell, Jim Hall threw away the changes and played something else, except for the bridge on The Bridge, that was standard comping, to me. Very interesting, I should probably watch those Jens Larsen videos James posted.

I took Peters advice too and set an iReal drum track to 200 and went for it for 240 bars a few times. Switching around the first two bars as below seemed like enough variation if I stick to hitting all the chords for a swing thing.

Bb G- C- F7
D- G7 C- F7
D- Db° C- F7
Bb Db7 C7 Cb7

[bediles]

FWIW, I used to think Rhythm Changes involved the rhythm changing throughout the tune .

Watch out for where the rhythm changes!