$6500 L5 CES from Gruhn Guitars

[wintermoon]

I feel I need to clarify what was misunderstood then I will shut up. My concern was that the instrument might have been stolen and the only way I could think of to verify it was truly his was to see the receipt or, since he said, he bought it off Reverb, confirm that in some way. I was not referring to the safety of the sale. And BTW, I agree with you skycomishone.

I don't think you need to shut up, knowing if a seller actually owns the instrument is a legitimate concern.
I cited a couple examples of possibly proving that much, but that's still zero protection against someone taking your $ and you not receiving a guitar in a non local deal.

[Stringswinger]

I feel I need to clarify what was misunderstood then I will shut up. My concern was that the instrument might have been stolen and the only way I could think of to verify it was truly his was to see the receipt or, since he said, he bought it off Reverb, confirm that in some way. I was not referring to the safety of the sale. And BTW, I agree with you skycomishone.

Most guys who have bought guitars from me have not asked for a receipt. I always do as I have written some guitar purchases off as a tax deduction.

There is always a risk when buying something that it was stolen from someone else, even new stuff perhaps. And if the rightful owner shows up, you could be out a significant amount of money. One can reduce the risk of that happening by only buying instruments from respected dealers. When I can, I try to figure out the history of an instrument before making the purchase. If a seller seems shady, I walk away.

[jazzshrink]

If someone wasn't paying close attention, they might think we're still discussing the same guitar jzucker created this PSA thread for. In post #18, skykomishone began talking about a different guitar. All this talk about stolen instruments, receipts, multiple Reverb listings etc. has nothing to do with the Gruhn Guitar listing afaik. I mention this because Gruhn has been in business for over 50 years, and the idea that someone might walk away from this discussion with doubts about Gruhn's integrity seems unfair.

[dunhamdolomite]

IGruhn isn't deceitful but you are expected to ask the right questions. If you want a deceitful shop, it's five min drive up 8th ave from Gruhns.

I'm wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on this point (especially the 8th ave shop). They both seem above board but I'm guessing you might have had a different experience. I wouldn't necessarily call any store honest that does not disclose some issues that they know that might not be apparent to a customer. If buying from a private seller than due diligence is definitely to be expected (and doesn't hurt with dealers), but with a reputable dealer it is reasonable to expect some integrity (otherwise their value in the market will eventually catch up to them). There are plenty other vintage dealers that charge a bit of a premium for this trust (and maintain it with their honesty), but it would be good to know if we should take this particular store off that list.

(Feel free to send a PM if you prefer)

[deacon Mark]

Without saying anything about dealers there are tricky questions. Let me give you a few.

1. If a guitar was refinished by the individual maker does that make the guitar original. This happened many times with D'angelicos and Gibson. Many times, Gibson got a guitar back and refinished it.
2. If the neck was reset does this constitute an issue with the guitar or a detraction in value?
3. The guitar has some cleats around the f holes but no actual cracks, was it done for caution or part of the build?
4. The neck was refinished or over-sprayed due to wear but otherwise nothing?
5. The frets were replaced?
6. Guitar has a tailpiece that is for same model guitar but not the original tailpiece that came with the guitar?
7. You have a Dangelico and it was refinished by Jimmy Daquisto?
8. You have a Gibson that was refinished by Jimmy Daquisto?
9. You have a Super 400 neck crack that was completely repaired by Mark Campellone?

These are only some of the questions that could be thought of as tricky or not so obvious. It really depends on who the dealer is, and the mindset of the person buying the guitar. A guitar that is 75 years old will have had to have had work done on it if it was played any amount of time. It still might need work if it was never played because things change in the environment.

Play them guitars because we leave this world behind and the guitars.

The older I get the more I am willing to see guitars that are old as being in good shape when some buyers look at them as being well used. I am 62 years old and like my guitars I don't look as young as I did at 30, a few battle scars. I really think the best way to judge a guitar is to look at the condition but also take into account the guitars age. The real elephant in the room is the lack of knowledge dealers have that is completely correct. Many times, there is no way to know if a guitar was refinished if done a long time ago and using the same finish. A Gibson L5 made in 1936 and refinished by Gibson in 1946 probably would never be able to know. Then the question is as I pointed out in the first place.

Unless a guitar was owned by one person for a long time and somehow documented or records kept, many things are speculation and dealers know this without question. They can use that to their advantage given the situation as either a buyer or seller. Individuals selling guitars can do the same thing, but a dealer is supposed to have some level of credibility. One thing that might change as time goes on and the internet is the availability of information stored. You might be able to find a guitar you bought on some cross reference search. I keep close watch of this looking for a few guitars I have owned in the past. Politicians are now seeing the effects of his on words and speeches they did over 20-30 years ago. It has come back to haunt them for sure.

[omphalopsychos]

I'm wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on this point (especially the 8th ave shop). They both seem above board but I'm guessing you might have had a different experience. I wouldn't necessarily call any store honest that does not disclose some issues that they know that might not be apparent to a customer. If buying from a private seller than due diligence is definitely to be expected (and doesn't hurt with dealers), but with a reputable dealer it is reasonable to expect some integrity (otherwise their value in the market will eventually catch up to them). There are plenty other vintage dealers that charge a bit of a premium for this trust (and maintain it with their honesty), but it would be good to know if we should take this particular store off that list.

(Feel free to send a PM if you prefer)

No need to be delicate. Carter Vintage has no integrity as a dealer. Not only did they intentionally not disclose cracks, they even tried to blame it on UPS.

[Topper Roth]

Ouch.

[Doctor Jeff]

Politicians are now seeing the effects of his on words and speeches they did over 20-30 years ago. It has come back to haunt them for sure.

Ha! We can only wish.

[jazzshrink]

No need to be delicate. Carter Vintage has no integrity as a dealer. Not only did they intentionally not disclose cracks, they even tried to blame it on UPS.

That sucks. Is this the only bad experience you've had with Carter Vintage, or are there others?

[omphalopsychos]

That's the first and last time I bought anything from them but definitely not the last bad experience. I spent a few hours there while visiting nashville. The sales reps were indifferent, ignorant, unfriendly. Nobody wanted to have a serious discussion about the $10k - $20k instruments I was considering buying. They must make it up in volume.

I occasionally check their inventory and it's a bit of a running joke with some forum members how insane their listings are. Some are described as excellent condition (and priced as such) with numerous repairs and modifications. I often wonder if this is driven by malice or stupidity and, in giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think it's a combination of both.

Here's a fairly trivial example of their ignorance. This ES-135 was listed on their site as an L-50. I actually was curious about it because I like these (it's basically an ES 125 with nicer cosmetics). While talking to them I gave them a heads up that they have the model wrong. They said they would look into it, but never did. I messaged them again a month later just to remind them they have the listing wrong. No action. Judging that it was sold, I bet the buyer thinks they bought an L50 rather than an ES 135.

Check out their (dead wrong) speculative description.

A fantastically resonant and comfortable L-50! This guitar was factory modified right around 1950 to accommodate a P90, and has a replaced end pin and tuners. It is in great shape for its age with finish checking and play wear throughout. The finish has aged to a beautiful satin sheen. Comes with a modern Gibson hard case.

I take it that while installing that p90, the Gibson factory also replaced the spruce top with a maple plywood top. I would hate to be the buyer stuck with this guitar thinking it was something different (not that a modded L50 would be any more valuable).

[omphalopsychos]

Oh I just realized I've vented about this on the forum already.


Side cracks on vintage instrument just arrived today - what to do?


Is Carter Vintage becoming a joke?



Back to your usual business. Someone should buy that L5 just to snub Carter.

[Sam Sherry]

Over the years I've found that guitars priced 5 figures and over are a bit harder to sell than a 4 figure instrument unless particularly rare or desireable. That extra digit makes the average buyer hesistate to pull the trigger on a purchase.

My personal experience right here on JG.be is that there is always a market for a 'player'-condition vintage guitar priced accordingly.

Many people value pristine condition and pay for it.
Many people value sound and put less stock in pristine condition.
Everybody is correct for themselves.

If somebody is looking for the sound of a fifty-year-old L5CES for half the price, jump now.
If the buyer wants the neck finished (again) in clear nitro that's not a costly job. Gruhns would do it right, too, and it would just show up at your house looking 'regular.'
Personally, I like the look of 1970s Gibson fiddle-back maple -- dead on quarter, cut and cured to last for the ages.

[floatingpickup]

My personal experience right here on JG.be is that there is always a market for a 'player'-condition vintage guitar priced accordingly.

Many people value pristine condition and pay for it.
Many people value sound and put less stock in pristine condition.
Everybody is correct for themselves.

If somebody is looking for the sound of a fifty-year-old L5CES for half the price, jump now.
If the buyer wants the neck finished (again) in clear nitro that's not a costly job. Gruhns would do it right, too, and it would just show up at your house looking 'regular.'
Personally, I like the look of 1970s Gibson fiddle-back maple -- dead on quarter, cut and cured to last for the ages.

I have a 1974 L5CESN. I play it on all of my gigs these days and it sounds and feels great. It has a very comfortable neck with a 1 11/16” nut and no volute. Mine has the typical plain maple back of that era, but that doesn’t bother me at all. I have owned several L5’s and my experience with L5’s from the Norlin era has been positive. They can be excellent guitars for less money than most older or newer ones.
Keith

[rictroll]

Well, with that I think you've essentially committed to checking it out and providing your thoughts/review to us!

Never got over there this past weekend due to cold temperatures, icy sidewalks, and friends to see.

Probably a blessing.

[2bornot2bop]

If someone wasn't paying close attention, they might think we're still discussing the same guitar jzucker created this PSA thread for. In post #18, skykomishone began talking about a different guitar. All this talk about stolen instruments, receipts, multiple Reverb listings etc. has nothing to do with the Gruhn Guitar listing afaik. I mention this because Gruhn has been in business for over 50 years, and the idea that someone might walk away from this discussion with doubts about Gruhn's integrity seems unfair.

Nearly every thread on this forum someone takes it in a different direction. Why should this thread be an exception.

[sgosnell]

It's not just this forum. It's the norm on every forum I've ever read, regardless of the nominal subject.

[jzucker]

I wanted to post one more thing before dropping off this thread. I have visited gruhn a couple times and recently bought a 30+ year old 175 from them. I found the sales people to be very helpful and not rude or indifferent at all. The 175 I bought from them was EXACTLY as they described it and they went out of their way to measure the action, the neck thickness and answered a ton of questions about the guitar.

I've only bought 2 instruments from them but I would say out of all the vintage guitar dealers in the country, the are:

• The most knowledgeable
• Have the best luthiers on staff
• Understand things like tail rises, bracing, sunken tops
• Don't offer guitars for sale that have major issues.

You will typically pay a bit more for a Gruhn guitar because you're paying for the high price of a brick and mortar store in one of the highest-rent districts in the USA but unlike many of the other dealers, they don't sell junk. And contrary to what someone else posted, even though I wouldn't advise it, you can probably trust them and ask less questions than you would most dealers.

[omphalopsychos]

I wanted to post one more thing before dropping off this thread. I have visited gruhn a couple times and recently bought a 30+ year old 175 from them. I found the sales people to be very helpful and not rude or indifferent at all. The 175 I bought from them was EXACTLY as they described it and they went out of their way to measure the action, the neck thickness and answered a ton of questions about the guitar.

I've only bought 2 instruments from them but I would say out of all the vintage guitar dealers in the country, the are:

• The most knowledgeable
• Have the best luthiers on staff
• Understand things like tail rises, bracing, sunken tops
• Don't offer guitars for sale that have major issues.

You will typically pay a bit more for a Gruhn guitar because you're paying for the high price of a brick and mortar store in one of the highest-rent districts in the USA but unlike many of the other dealers, they don't sell junk. And contrary to what someone else posted, even though I wouldn't advise it, you can probably trust them and ask less questions than you would most dealers.

100% agree. Love Gruhn's and have only had excellent experiences with them.

[street]

What are the disadvantages of these low frets? Thanks in advance.

Some people prefer them.
I had a Gibson "fretless wonder" LPC for 15 years. If you're not used to it, it can feel weird coming from standard frets.
Once I got used to it I found it easy to play (and I like low action) and didn't feel I needed to press down harder, if anything it was the opposite since there is no where to press down, you're already on the fretboard.
Going back to regular frets felt like playing on train tracks.

I've known people who swear by them, but I prefer the standard frets you see on a typical Gibson these days.