Eastman 7-string - AR810CE (UK)

[Rob MacKillop]

An excellent demo, Dave. I’d be over the moon to play that well. Sounds great, I must say. However, to say “you simply can’t do this with a low B” ignores the fact that there must be things one could do with a low B that you simply can’t do with a low A. No? But I get your point. I really appreciate you made that video for me!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

An excellent demo, Dave. I’d be over the moon to play that well. Sounds great, I must say. However, to say “you simply can’t do this with a low B” ignores the fact that there must be things one could do with a low B that you simply can’t do with a low A. No? But I get your point. I really appreciate you made that video for me!

Low B is largely for heavy metal shredders. They like “power chords”, which are basically multi octave note assaults using the low B string to augment 1-5 and variants (add 3, 3b, 7 to taste). I’ve been playing 7 strings for 33 years and have never found any reason or need to use a B. Walking bass lines are more natural on an A, and A is far more useful if you like solo playing with open strings mixed in (especially in C, D, G, and A).

Low A also gives you a root an octave lower in any key in which being in the upper frets would otherwise limit you to the 5th or 6th string.

[Rob MacKillop]

I’m likely to choose A, but Jimmy Blue Note here is a B player, and I’d like to give respect to him too. But I will of course make my own mind up.

[Jthompson48]

Jimmy Blue's explanation using the low B string is the first that has resonated with me as I generally have thought of it is as Nevershould has described. That being said, the low A allowing me to keep chord shapes is what works for my purposes for now.

[Rob MacKillop]

Of course, using one does not preclude you using the other on occasion, much like Drop D on a 6-string.

[nyc chaz]

When i think 7 string jazz guitar,i see Bucky and John Pizzarelli.Both always used a low A.

[Jimmy blue note]

When i think 7 string jazz guitar,i see Bucky and John Pizzarelli.Both always used a low A.

There is a way that jazz guitar has been taught, chord forms, CAGED, Drop 2 and orienting oneself in pattern based guitaristic defaults. It really helps to "decode" the chaos of the fingerboard. It treats the fingerboard like a string instrument.

And there is a way of seeing the guitar in terms of the continuum of intervals, across and along the string (up and down the neck) equally. This is based on an equality of facility across and up and down a string. It's treats the fingerboard like a piano.
Simply put, it took a lot of work to really feel sure footed using low B, but when I'm playing a line, I want all the strings to be able to handle a melodic line with the facility that I have on the other 6 strings. So, for me, it's not a 6 string guitar with an added string, but 7 strings with the same general reach throughout. This lets me work motifically and intervalically without making any adjustments for a non-4th built string sitting at the bottom of the guitar.
It just helps me see the guitar as a whole. It's closer to the piano that I formed my concept with when I started music as a kid.

As I've said, it's up to the individual to know what they need to fit their concept of the instrument and how the addition of the string works with, augments and expands that concept.
I should say that a good part of my voice leading is from Mick Goodrick's Almanacs of Voice Leading so being able to seamlessly voice lead inversions to create inner voice movement is MUCH easier when employing the 7th string doesn't mean changing chord shapes. A first inversion chord played with the bass on the 6th is the same as a first inversion chord played with bass voice on the 7th. It allows for a LOT of voicing and chord alteration when the parent chord shapes are consistent for a larger number of string sets.

That's the way I play, so that's why I tune this way.
Now maybe if I had an 8 string...

[Rob MacKillop]

I can see pros and cons with either approach.

If we think of the 1st and 2nd strings, and play a descending line from G# down to the open B, none of us would have a problem doing that. But tune that second string to an A, and there might be a slight hesitation, especially with some more advanced licks. Jimmy seems to want to replicate the normal E to B relationship, which is very familiar to him. There’s a logic to it. From that perspective, tuning the B string to A would be an odd thing to do, so why do it in the low bass register? I apologise if I’m misrepresenting your thinking, Jimmy, but that’s my reading of what you are saying. Is that right?

The advantage of the low A for the 7th string is having that beautiful low A - it’s useful as a tonic note, a dominant note, a leading note - and gives a more double-bass sound.

There are not many 6-string guitarists who would adopt a dropped D tuning as their standard tuning - some metal players, perhaps. Most of us would think it an odd thing to do. But having an A 7th string is effectively the same thing, is it not?

One thing that struck me was a comment Jimmy made earlier in this thread, that the low A is harmonic based, whereas the low B was more melodic. Maybe not everyone would agree with that, but I can see what he was getting at.

But when I think of my bass-playing days and common jazz keys, it was really helpful playing a low E as an approach to a tonic F chord. Transposing that to a low A 7th string, it would approach a tonic Bb chord - very helpful - whereas a low B 7th string would approach a tonic C chord - also very helpful, but maybe slightly less common than the key of Bb? Maybe.

I guess it doesn’t really matter which you choose, as long as you spend time getting to know it, working with its pros and cons.

I’m leaning towards an A, purely for the commonality of the key of Bb in the jazz literature, and of my long-held perception of an A string as a bass string, and a B string as a melodic string.

[Rob MacKillop]

Wow. Sam Dunn. Never heard of him until ten minutes ago. Plectrum 7-string playing;

[Rob MacKillop]

This guy discusses the advantages of each tuning - A or B - and favours B. Do yourself a favour and miss the first four minutes. He could have cut to the chase and made this a two-minute video:

[Rob MacKillop]

One question: what string would you use for a low B?

[Jimmy blue note]

One question: what string would you use for a low B?

I go at least mid .60's, like .66 or .68. And it's REALLY important that the nut be cut to play as low as possible because with a low range string, the intonation problems are very acute, so you want to minimize the amount of distortion through string stretching associated with a nut height that isn't optimally low.
This is one of the reason that longer scale 7 strings make sense; they hold a higher tension and stay truer.

All this discussion is great. Play with it. Put aside all the discussions and anything anyone has said and live with it. The instrument will begin to speak to you. If you use moving bass lines, take it down and see if the tuning helps or hinders your creative flow. If you have a solid vocabulary of chord shapes you use, see if a particular tuning works without necessitating the assimilation of too much re-learning.
This discussion really does illustrate the diversity of approaches we use to make sense of this stringed instrument. You've been playing long enough to have your own way of seeing the board. The guitar will speak to you.
Have fun Rob! Pictures!!!
And you're lucky to have a wife that understands how much the human spirit needs new frontiers. Find joy!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

One thing that struck me was a comment Jimmy made earlier in this thread, that the low A is harmonic based, whereas the low B was more melodic. Maybe not everyone would agree with that, but I can see what he was getting at.

But when I think of my bass-playing days and common jazz keys, it was really helpful playing a low E as an approach to a tonic F chord. Transposing that to a low A 7th string, it would approach a tonic Bb chord - very helpful - whereas a low B 7th string would approach a tonic C chord - also very helpful, but maybe slightly less common than the key of Bb? Maybe.

I guess it doesn’t really matter which you choose, as long as you spend time getting to know it, working with its pros and cons.

I’m leaning towards an A, purely for the commonality of the key of Bb in the jazz literature, and of my long-held perception of an A string as a bass string, and a B string as a melodic string.

That’s one way to look at it. But you can use the 7th for drop 2 voicings whether it’s an A or a B. I fret it with my little finger to hit the dominant, or I suppose you could use your thumb (which I never do). But B limits your walking bass lines to the 5 under the tonic, unless you shift down 2 frets. For example, you’re stuck in Bb at the 6th fret unless you “lower the barre”, which really complicates chord fingering - and you can only get to the F if you stick to a 6th fret barre.

With an A, you can go all the way to the tonic root (which I think is essential to have available for most bass lines, even if used sparingly). You have more flexibility - for example, you have “full use” of Bb or Eb at the 6th. And the same stretch of the pinkie that gives you a drop 2 on the 7th also gives you the second and third notes of the tonic scale above the root. If you can do it to walk up a bass line from the 5, you can do it to play a drop 2.

The sonic problem I find with drop 2 on the 7th string is that having the dominant note on the 7th under the tonic on the sixth is too much too low. I think it often sounds muddy even if only in a triad or a double stop. If I want a drop 2 voicing down there, especially in the first few frets, I’ll usually play it rootless (or move it up an octave on rare occasions - that’s often an odd sound to me) to avoid “clutter” in the bottom octave. It’s definitely too much when comping over a bass or with a keyboard player who has a left hand.

Just my tuppence, Rob & Jimmy. YMMV.

PS: It looks to me like more players who continue to switch between 6 and 7 strings prefer low B. Those who only play 7 favor an A. Since I switched completely more than 30 years ago, I’ve had difficulty going back to 6, eg when asked to sit in where only a 6 is available to me.

[Rob MacKillop]

I’ve no mileage at all so far

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I’ve no mileage at all so far

I just added a thought to my last post. If you plan to continue playing both 6 and 7, you may find it easier to use B. Shortly after I made the switch, my band played a gig at a club where Jimmy Bruno was the headliner later that night. He was playing a Benedetto 7 at the time, and I asked him if he had any tips for a new 7 string convert. He told me that if I really wanted to play a 7 well, I should sell all my 6s.

FWIW, Van Eps, Herberman, the Pizzarellis, and Bruno all use(d) A.

[Rob MacKillop]

Possibly. But after playing in about a dozen tunings over the years, I’ve learned to adapt pretty well.

Just from a sonic perspective, I’ve found the sound of the low A on some guitars just doesn’t sound that good, where a B might blend in better. But sometimes that low A can sound great. Have you played some guitars where the A sounds bad?

[Jimmy blue note]

When i think 7 string jazz guitar,i see Bucky and John Pizzarelli.Both always used a low A.

When I think of jazz guitar, I think of the imperative to explore what hasn't been done before and to discover and make your own rules. Honestly, I never took my cue from any other players and though seeing Bucky regularly at the Village Gate with Slam Stewart made me want to play 7 string, I never saw him as an inspiration with whom to model my own playing.
That came from Mick Goodrick with whom I played duo with for 7 years. Ha, he could never "get" the 7 string though he admitted it would have seemed like a natural. He was a staunch 6 string player and he never stopped humbling me with the range of sounds he got with his six strings. And speaking of Bucky, one of my greatest catalyists was none other than Tiny Grimes who I saw in NY when I was young. He had the sound that, at the time, made me want to play chord melody like him. He was a 4 string player. Lots of talk on why we do what we do. There comes a time when we shut up and play the guitar.

[Rob MacKillop]

Well said!

[nyc chaz]

When I think of jazz guitar, I think of the imperative to explore what hasn't been done before and to discover and make your own rules. Honestly, I never took my cue from any other players and though seeing Bucky regularly at the Village Gate with Slam Stewart made me want to play 7 string, I never saw him as an inspiration with whom to model my own playing.
That came from Mick Goodrick with whom I played duo with for 7 years. Ha, he could never "get" the 7 string though he admitted it would have seemed like a natural. He was a staunch 6 string player and he never stopped humbling me with the range of sounds he got with his six strings. And speaking of Bucky, one of my greatest catalyists was none other than Tiny Grimes who I saw in NY when I was young. He had the sound that, at the time, made me want to play chord melody like him. He was a 4 string player. Lots of talk on why we do what we do. There comes a time when we shut up and play the guitar.

Your last sentence in your post is good advice.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Just from a sonic perspective, I’ve found the sound of the low A on some guitars just doesn’t sound that good, where a B might blend in better. But sometimes that low A can sound great. Have you played some guitars where the A sounds bad?

TBH,I think it’s usually the amplifier that makes the 7th sound less than its best. But this is true regardless of tuning. Most 7 string players (including me) started out on a 6, doing everything they could to pump up the bass. This leads to unnaturally fat, flabby, boomy bass that’s dramatic but not very musical. I did this for years with a B15, a Bassman, a Twin, etc.

When switching to 7, they assume that they’ll need even more bass, which only makes it worse. A 7 needs tightly controlled low bass to sound great. It’s a bit too full and flabby on the little demo I made for you. If that low A is clean and has minimal harmonic distortion, it sits nicely under whatever else you’re playing. But if there’s too much low order harmonic distortion, those 2nd and 4th harmonics that are over boosted by EQ (to get a big boom) sit right in the middle of everything else being played and muddy it up.

[Rob MacKillop]

So, as ever, you need to play the amp as well...some are better at that than others.