-
We run into this frequently on the forum. Sellers offer infomration that's difficult or impossible to verify. A lot of it is true, but some of it is not. Collectively, we're becoming more cautious about all of this than we used to be, because the business of fleecing buyers now flourishes on the internet.
Originally Posted by Joshk
I can think of several sale ads posted here in the last year that raised suspicions (including mine) but turned out to be accurate. Most sellers and most buyers have neither the interest nor the resources to devote to tracking down historical info and verifying its accuracy. Many of my friends and bandmates have trusted the bro, and some have been burned. I've been on the other end of that a few times, when widely circulated info conflicted with my own documentation. I had a Carvin 7 string made in 1994. I know this because I picked it up at the factory when I was in San Diego for a gig at the Marriott. I'd been curious about Carvins for years, but I was unwilling to risk ordering one sight unseen When I got the gig, I realized that it was a chance to try one. So I called Carvin (which had a true cusstom shop in those days) and discussed what I wanted with whoever answered the phone. He told me it was a beautiful instrument that he could easily sell if I decided I didn't want it when I got there and saw it. So I ordered it and they didn't even want a down payment. It was labeled a DC727.
When I sold it to another forum member maybe 6 or 7 years ago after we downsized to an apartment, I discovered that Carvin can't date their guitars from the serial number. The internet "documents" only that the DC727 was introduced in 1999. So here I am with a guitar that I know I had made in 1994 because I still have all the records of the trip to San Diego in September of 1994 (including credit card receipts in digital account records). My wife went with me - we both have clear memories that coincide with our records. I did not, however, have the original docmentation from Carvin because I either misplaced or destroyed it along with old records when we sold the house and moved 20+ years later. Who do you believe - me or the internet?
Trust me, bro - but verify if you can.
-
07-20-2026 10:50 AM
-
I'd ask the seller "could you give me the name and contact information of the collector? I'm interested in the guitar, but would love to discuss more in depth". Originally Posted by Joshk
Worst thing he says is "No", right?
-
This is a little bit of an aside, but we all like rabbit holes here, right?
Several years ago I bought an all acoustic non cutaway Heritage Super Eagle from Wolfe Guitars. It had been in Jay’s personal collection for 20 years and was basically in new condition. Jay claimed that when he had ordered it, he payed extra to have it carved and tap-tuned by Aaron Cowles (who was doing contract work for Heritage at the time). The label says “tap tuned” and is signed by the 4 Heritage owners, but isn’t signed by anyone else. I have no documentation that the work was actually done by Aaron other than Jay’s word (although I would consider him a pretty reliable source).
I made a trip to the Heritage factory last year and took the guitar along. I told them the story and Pete Farmer, the Heritage master builder and current carver of all their archtops, was skeptical that it was done by Aaron. He said that he (Pete) had made some guitars like that and thought it might have been one of his. He inspected the inside of the guitar with some mirrors and came to the conclusion that it was definitely NOT his work, but he couldn’t say for sure whose work it was.
-
As it stands now, I’m of the view the ball is in his court to overcome doubts I expressed. If he checked on my feedback listed on reverb, he’d know I’m a buyer. By my third message, I decided to wish him good luck with the sale since it seemed as if I was getting nowhere.
When I saw the listing Saturday night, I thought dam the guitar was really similar to an ‘81 Johnny Smith Master model, a sunburst brunette, I have, except mine has a valute at the neck & doesn’t have the little diamond on the back below the heel of the neck. Looked like even the same pickup & jack setup beneath the pickguard (this needed to be changed). Believe me, it caught my eye. However, I’m glad I decided to note it on the thread Mark recently started because I knew sleuths on this forum might have invaluable insights to possibly curb my initial enthusiasm.
-
Then again, $6k for a good S400CN seems like a fair asking price for a special guitar that doesn’t come around very often. If I were seriously interested and it was affordably accessible, I’d do my best to get to it and (if necessary) line up a local luthier to check it out. There’s no substitute for personal inspection, and the cost of travel & a luthiers hour is a small fraction of the cost of ownership. Originally Posted by Joshk
I strongly suspect (but don’t know for sure) that it’s hard to sell a high end guitar with neither a serial number nor any documentation. So the seller should be willing to come down in price, more so the longer it goes unsold. If it would be a keeper, the strategy is to make sure it’s a good one, get the best price, take it home, and love it. If there’s a flip in the plan, this may not be the right guitar for you.
-
My guess is that is a good guitar for sure. The real problem is explaining the guitar. That Super 400 blond is clearly a Gibson but I am not sure how you explain the guitar if and when you go to sell it. Aaron could carved great guitars. I have his Unity Angel that belongs to Bigmike right here under my feet and it is a great guitar. An 18 inch massive guitar with a pretty high arch. To me this guitar does not look like a Super 400 but it has some semblance of the sound. I should post a Video of it acoustically.
-
No one has brought up the anomalies in it. Start with the diamond on the back of the peghead - I thought they were all split to match the FB inlays. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Then there are the filled holes from the original tuners, with the current tuners installed above. The headstock looks wrong - it’s oddly elongated and disproportionate.
The black diamond in the back just below the heel is not a standard S400 feature. It could be a repair of a buggered strap pin hole.
-
And it's in no way ever a real Gibson. I don't care who made it. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
That guitar is worth approximately half the asking price, in my opinion, and that's ONLY IF it's all carved and plays decently.
-
I agree,at 3K it's a might be a decent gamble to take for some brave soul.The seller only allows a one day return which is kind of useless and a 15 percent restocking fee which would make it a hard no for me to take a chance. Originally Posted by 58flame
-
Most of it looks like a real Super save for the aforementioned headstock diamond and back inlay nshsi pointed out.
Headstock shape looks semi ok but for the open book/mustache top which is typically more pronounced, especially in this era. Should be 5ply bound though, not 3 and the dark neck laminate strips look a bit wide.
Can't remember ever seeing an Oettinger t.p. on a Super though, that's more typical of a period Super 5 or Johnny Smith and looks like it's always been on this guitar.
-
Someone made the leap of faith because reverb notes the guitar sold. That’s good. I hope it turns out to be the guitar someone looks forward to playing every day.
-
If I were in the US I would have thought about it.
However, the restocking fee of over 800 bucks is huge and did nothing to offer any confidence. To me it shows a lack of the sellers faith in his own product.
-
There was a time when Heritage had an upcharge for tap tuning. My recall is that they all went to Aaron for that. Aaron would drive to Heritage and pick up the plates. The upcharge was not that much considering how much time and expertise Aaron put into them. Still, he didn't assemble the body and inspect the final instrument.
Those at Heritage who finished off the guitars had a lot of talent and experience.
I knew Aaron and was at his humble store many times. He was old school in the best way and was humble. He also was painfully honest.
His archtop and acoustic builds were as good as virtually any Gibson. He would admit that his skills with a spray gun weren't as good as some of his colleagues, which I can attest to. In a natural, his instruments were at the highest level.
He had a tiny shop and store in a small village on its main street. He carried a pistol in case it was needed. He was humble but not to a fault. When it came to building the Gibson Citation, Super 400, and high end flattops, he'd say that there were several at Gibson who'd do the bracing and plates. Each had their own ways. To me, these differences were quite subtle, but not to Aaron. They each sounded distinct to him. Yet the three of them got along with their differences. Two of them were Jim Deurloo and Marv Lamb from Heritage.
These guys were from humble origins and developed great skills with a strong work ethic and commitment to providing quality at a fair price. Their tastes were not so cosmopolitan though. Aaron's guitars had kitschy ornamentation. Sometimes Heritage did as well, although that has largely been "tamed" the last decade.
One of my favorite guitars is an example of the work of the four Heritage owners, Aaron, and Maudie Moore. I got this a long time ago and thought it was freakish. I still do, but in a way that doesn't bother me anymore. You'd have to consider the deep admiration the builders had for their country and the pride they had for putting the first man on the moon. They were not urbane folks, rather they were "salt of the earth" types with great skills developed the hard way.
-
I'll add this surprising link of Heritage and Benedetto.
There's this: Larry Perkins, Master Finisher and Blues Guitarist: March 23,1956 to November 19, 2024 - Benedetto Guitars
A second association is with Bob Benedetto's book. 2nd Edition “Making an Archtop Guitar” (signed) - Benedetto Guitars
He compliments Heritage on their American Eagle.
-
I agree - aside from some variations in hardware and decorative features, the guitar looks right (though the 18.25" lower bout width is unusual) - the 400's always had an elongated peghead, and the wider dark laminate strips in the neck are what you typically see on the Citation model - in any case, a very interesting guitar - I think the buyer did well to score this beauty at that price. Originally Posted by wintermoon
-
It’s back listed on reverb. This is becoming very entertaining.
The Marketplace for Musicians | Reverb.com
-
Very sensible comments and I agree completely - probably not a great investment if you're worried about reselling since some things about the guitar raise questions - if Aaron built this guitar as a Gibson employee or under contract, then why no label or serial number? - and if Aaron built it on his own, then would Gibson be OK with him putting their name on it??? Anyway, whatever the case, if it wasn't an official factory build, then who other than Aaron could've pulled this guitar off? Seems to me the list of candidates would be very short. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
One possibility (this is purely speculation) is that this could have been made around the time Gibson was closing the Kalamazoo plant. The word is that there were lots of parts and guitars in various stages of completion that employees took home with them when that happened. Perhaps this was Aaron’s guitar version of the car in that Johnny Cash song “one piece at a time”.
-
Ha! That's possible, too - having access to parts, an employee other than Aaron could've taken the guitar, partially built, and finished it up - guess that would make it a "bootleg" real Gibson Originally Posted by andrew
-
Occam's Razor in action. Originally Posted by MCampellone
-
It's still not a Gibson. Buyer beware.
-
Aaron talked about how much work he'd put into his flattops and archtops and how little they sold for. I know it would take significant time for him to tap tune the plates. I saw a few moments of him doing this.
Heritage had an arrangement with Aaron to tune plates for those ordering this upcharge. This was quite a few years ago. Aaron would get the tops and backs. He'd pick them up at Heritage, do the work, then return them. If I remember correctly, that was a $75 upcharge. Aaron did some work also at the Heritage plant, or at least he visited there quite a bit.
Aaron was a modest yet gifted man. The other legend of that time is Maudie Moore. The Legacy of Maude Moore: A Star in the Guitar Industry | Escher Guitars She also was a very approachable, kind person. Like Aaron, she was a diamond in the rough who was hired as a youngster at Gibson and worked her way up into creating inlays and engraving. I came to know her when she ceased doing her custom work out of a room in her home. Another great Gibson employee, Pete Moreno, coaxed her into doing one more inlay job for me and to also make turtle shaped fretboard markers (if I remember right) for someone else.
-
I recall talking to Aaron and to Pete Moreno about Gibson tap tuning. There were several Gibson employees who did this. Marv Lamb from Heritage was one. Each of them did the tuning a little differently and prefered their approach. Aaron and Marv each told me that. Fuller also did tap tuning.
Kalamazoo Award – Natural – Davidson's Well Strung Guitars – We Buy and Sell Vintage Guitars
As an aside, Aaron told me that Gibson was making its mandolins back in the day. Gibson & Epiphone Mandolin Instruments | Gibson Aaron would assemble them often in his home. Gibson let him take pieces to his house and put them together. Aaron got $75 each. I believe he didn't do the finishes and final parts assembly though, just the necks and bodies.
It's remarkable to me, growing up in Kalamazoo, how humble and ordinary these people seemed. For example, Pete Moreno had stories that he'd not volunteer but would come out when asked. In his workshop he had pictures of some prominent people, BB King for example, where they were having work done on an instrument. One of my favorite stories was about when Pete worked for Gibson in the 1960s. Pete was asked to stay late to show a visitor some guitars. In walked Eric Clapton. Pete handed him guitars, Eric played them, then Eric chose one.
These stories and personalities have shaped my opinions on the Gibson legacy. Their higher tier instruments were not entirely consistent. It seems most were built well but by those who had slightly different approaches to carving and bracing. The finishes also could vary in how they were sprayed. My sense is that there is more consistency now. I could be wrong but not by much.
-
PS - the Kalamazoo Award model also had the wider veneer strips in the neck. Originally Posted by MCampellone
-
Thanks for the link regarding Maudie. She’s a fascinating lady.
Reply With Quote
Gibson ES-175 Hollowbody Electric Guitar 2013 w/ Original Hard Case
Yesterday, 06:06 PM in For Sale