Heritage JS The Rose

[58flame]

My understanding is Johnny left Gibson because they couldn't make enough JS models and missed royalty payments. I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that Johnny left Heritage because Heritage made non JS spec guitars (like 18" models etc) with his name on them.

[deacon Mark]

My understanding is Johnny left Gibson because they couldn't make enough JS models and missed royalty payments. I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that Johnny left Heritage because Heritage made non JS spec guitars (like 18" models etc) with his name on them.

Well if an 18 inch one comes up for sale I want it for sure.

[skykomishone]

Getting back to talking about this specific guitar, it's all very sad to read that it has these problems, and it makes for lots of speculation. Speculation most importantly about what it would take to fix it, what would be one's motive and ultimate objective in owning it, how much risk one is willing to take and effort to give, and other intangibles. I wonder about the nut slots and tailpiece and how all of these other things all converge. It seems like someone was chasing a problem, and went to a hack luthier to try and remedy. Who knows? There's a history here, a story untold.
Maybe Mark C would take it on as a rescue? I sure hope it finds someone to give it some love. She needs it.

[58flame]

Getting back to talking about this specific guitar, it's all very sad to read that it has these problems, and it makes for lots of speculation. Speculation most importantly about what it would take to fix it, what would be one's motive and ultimate objective in owning it, how much risk one is willing to take and effort to give, and other intangibles. I wonder about the nut slots and tailpiece and how all of these other things all converge. It seems like someone was chasing a problem, and went to a hack luthier to try and remedy. Who knows? There's a history here, a story untold.
Maybe Mark C would take it on as a rescue? I sure hope it finds someone to give it some love. She needs it.

The buyer of this guitar is buying known problems. And it needs electronics.

This is a Run, Don't Walk away from instrument.

[nyc chaz]

The buyer of this guitar is buying known problems. And it needs electronics.

This is a Run, Don't Walk away from instrument.

Have to agrre with you 100 percent.How GC is still charging 5K even after all it's problems were pointed out to them is beyond me.The description as of today still has the condition listed as great.

[teeps]

If one buys a nice carved acoustic hollowbody for its sound or appearance - wouldn't one then consider a piezo transducer type pick-up or alternatively a SM57 on a stand if amplification or recording is needed?

[Mick-7]

Have to agrre with you 100 percent.How GC is still charging 5K even after all it's problems were pointed out to them is beyond me.The description as of today still has the condition listed as great.

This is why I would never buy a used guitar from Guitar Center unless I could play it first.

They should change their name to Guitar Off-Center.

[nyc chaz]

This is why I would never buy a used guitar from Guitar Center unless I could play it first.

They should change their name to Guitar Off-Center.

The reason people buy from them is their no question return policy and it is the only reason they are still in business.They have been deceptive for years selling used guitars as new but their return policy keeps them from being sued.

[Mick-7]

The reason people buy from them is their no question return policy and it is the only reason they are still in business. They have been deceptive for years selling used guitars as new but their return policy keeps them from being sued.

Yes, but it can be big hassle to return a guitar or amplifier. I bought a used amp from them that was defective, they obviously did not test it before labeling it "very good."

[nyc chaz]

Yes, but it can be big hassle to return a guitar or amplifier. I bought a used amp from them that was defective, they obviously did not test it before labeling it "very good."

Totally agree with you and that's why i haven't bought anything from them since 2010.

[guitarcarver]

I seem to remember this J.S. for sale previously with a pickup. The woman I spoke with at G.C. said there is nothing extra in the case pocket. Fwiw.

[Marty Grass]

Marty Grass, I’m glad you have Heritage Archtops that you enjoy! And did not mean insult your thoughts or your guitars.
I’ve owned several Heritage guitars albeit thinline Roy Clark,535, and a hollow 550 model.
And while they were perfectly fine instruments and in no way a carved top. I always found them different feel than Gibsons.

But again, I have must have played at least a dozen Golden Eagles and one J.S.Rose model. This was at Lavonne Music, a former dealer for both Heritage and Gibson guitars.
The owner was a collector of Archtops and Mandolins from the past. Mostly Epiphone and Gibsons. So as I said earlier, this was just my take on Heritage carved Archtops overall.
I will say he owned a particularly great sounding Heritage Sweet 16. But again the neck was really small.

So either you must have gotten really great Heritage Archtops, or maybe we just have really different tastes in guitars
Again sorry if I offended you, and thanks so much for all the background info on Johnny Smith guitars!

No problem at all! We all have different experiences.

[Marty Grass]

My understanding is Johnny left Gibson because they couldn't make enough JS models and missed royalty payments. I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that Johnny left Heritage because Heritage made non JS spec guitars (like 18" models etc) with his name on them.

Johnny Smith wasn't as popular when he left Gibson as he had been. I'd argue that Wes Montgomery and then George Benson were the leaders. That may have affected the sales of the Gibson JS. But Johnny was not happy with the quality consistency at Gibson toward the end.

[58flame]

Johnny Smith wasn't as popular when he left Gibson as he had been. I'd argue that Wes Montgomery and then George Benson were the leaders. That may have affected the sales of the Gibson JS. But Johnny was not happy with the quality consistency at Gibson toward the end.

By the time Johnny went to Gibson, his recording days were on the decline. George Benson went on a meteoric rise. No doubt George was more popular.

[jads57]

Interesting comments above about when these great players were at there peak. I’m assuming J.S. Was early 60’s,Wes Montgomery was in mid 60’s, and George Benson was late 60’s.

Funny because I’m 68 years old and only discovered George Benson in 1974, and the others a couple of years later!
And the George Benson cover of Song For My Father, is what did it for me. Just heard it on a local Jazz radio show in New Orleans back then.

[Cunamara]

In some interviews and in Lin Flanagan's biography of Johnny Smith, one of his biggest complaints was that Gibson never set up tooling for the neck carve, so every neck was slightly different. A lot of the GJS were sold through Johnny's music store in Colorado, so he did set up on a lot of them and would've been able to see the consistency or inconsistency.

That being said, my first jazz teacher had an early 40s Gibson L7 when I first started taking lessons, sold that and got a GJS. So to a certain extent, that is the archetypal model in my mind of a "jazz guitar." I suppose if my teacher had had a Gibson ES-175, that would be the archetype of a jazz guitar for me.

Although, by reputation, inconsistency was true for quite a number of Gibsons where neck specs varied even within the course of a model year.

[jads57]

I think whoever was responsible for shaping the necks,probably varied throughout the years. So one’s person preference would not be anothers.
Remember this was before CNC came into being. But I still think there was some consistency to most of the J.S. models in so much as the taper, and width overall. Or at least the various ones I had a chance to play throughout the Gibson’s version of them.

[tomvwash]

I think whoever was responsible for shaping the necks,probably varied throughout the years. So one’s person preference would not be anothers.
Remember this was before CNC came into being. But I still think there was some consistency to most of the J.S. models in so much as the taper, and width overall. Or at least the various ones I had a chance to play throughout the Gibson’s version of them.

Still intrigued by this guitar. CG is too lame to post the infamous hole pic, pointed out by Steve, and still listed as "Great." I purchased a Legrand from GC 4 or 5 years ago, I think someone PSA'd it here. It was a blonde. I paid $8k for it. It was mint, save for mild fret ware. And then in a domestic financial panic, I returned it for a full refund. Worst decision ever in the process of acquiring and selling. Speaking of Le Grands, was Maui Bob (?), don't recall his name, a forum member here? His Legrand has been sitting it out for a very long while now, here:

Laurence Wexer Ltd. | Gbase.com > Guitars Amps & More

[Marty Grass]

I have bought GC guitars from out-of-town stores and had them ship it to my local GC. There was no charge for that. But one of the guitars was an expensive used archtop. I unboxed it at my GC inside the store. They agreed with me that it was not as advertised and shipped it back. They gave me a refund on the spot. It was stated to be in excellent condition but had many dings and some scratches.

[Sam Sherry]

I have bought GC guitars from out-of-town stores and had them ship it to my local GC . . . . But one of the guitars was an expensive used archtop. I unboxed it at my GC inside the store. They agreed with me that it was not as advertised and shipped it back. They gave me a refund on the spot. It was stated to be in excellent condition but had many dings and some scratches.

Yeah . . . when I unboxed this Tacoma AJF-22 on the GC floor in 2022 everybody was bummed. It's not like GC did anything wrong -- all they did is ship via UPS.
Full money back; the guitar never left the store. For all I know it's still there.

[Marty Grass]

As been said, you should fully inspect the guitar there. If it's good and you like the price, buy it. Any decent luthier can mount the pickup and run the wrining to the pickguard, a side jack, or an end jack. You can do that locally, have Heritage do it, or a good luthier. I personally use Rob Doolitle. He has his own home shop for that sort of work and works at Heritage. He's a master. He's done excellent work for me. He also will go over the whole guitar and may have suggestions.

Kalamazoo Guitar Company – Passion Drives Us, Music Fuels Us

[Archie]

I think whoever was responsible for shaping the necks,probably varied throughout the years. So one’s person preference would not be anothers.
Remember this was before CNC came into being. But I still think there was some consistency to most of the J.S. models in so much as the taper, and width overall. Or at least the various ones I had a chance to play throughout the Gibson’s version of them.

Manufacturers of Gibson branded guitars (currently KKR &Co) often use ‘hand finishing’ on necks and bodies. It seems they primarily do this to address binding. Other reasons would be time consumption and cost of tooling. A 4 axis CNC machine can finish a neck to exacting dimensions but they use a 2.5 axis machine.
Where I believe the faults lie, is in the tooling they use to circumnavigate production short comings. Using a belt sander to finish a neck is like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. When it goes wrong it doesn’t go marginally wrong, hence the wild variations.

Joe is correct in that a CNC makes great guitar parts but he's saying "people make great guitars" to cover up the fact that they are using inconsistent and cheaper methods to make something that a CNC can do far more consistently.

22:20 “here we hand roll necks”

Another example of the inconsistency built into KKR & Co’s operations is the finishing of carved plates. This imo is another questionable long term practice used by serval past owners dating back to the 50’s.

Having recently purchased a wonderful sounding and playing Byrdland from the early 2010’s, I was surprised to see flat areas on the surface of the carved plates. I suspected this had been done by the use of a pad sander after CNC machining and binding, in order to remove tooling marks and excess binding. Imo this is again an example of using a sledge hammer to crack a nut
This very point is made by the astute rep in the below who seems concerned about the machines use.

3:40

In the below video focusing on the high end factory (I think it is a Byrdland that the worker is sanding) they are using the same sledge hammer (pad sander) on delicate spruce and larger carved plates. This is the reason why my Byrldland's carved plates are ‘interesting’ and many carved plates produced back to the 50’s if you inspect them, will be inconsistent. People just don't really inspect them (which is fine).

11:45

The question then is “well what you do”? and it's a good question. CNC machines are great until they need servicing, develop faults, software issues etc..
There are better methods but whether they are practical given the demands on the company, is unknown to me.

These are just two examples of why manufacturers of Gibson branded guitars are inconsistent (rightly or wrongly) and this inconstancy has been built into the production line since the 50’s.
What I do find interesting is that both Joe and the young guy working in the custom shop area, both rate the pad sander as their favourite machine. It’s a process that delights them. I on the other hand would never use it as it is the wrong tool for the job imo.