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Hi ! A few points to munch, especially in the US.
- The new toob.fi website is up and running. It's finally up-to-date and features all 15 models.
- Year-to-date, I have sent a double-digit number of Metros over the pond. The new Metro 8GP is a big hit among NY jazz cats.
- Jensen discontinues the N10/100 TR speaker, the classic 10” Tornado. One Tornado-loaded Toob 10S on the shelf – your last chance! Going forward, the 10S default speaker is the 40W Jensen Blackbird AlNiCo. Same price.
On Trump’s Trade War: The plot seems to bring a new twist each passing day. It's understandable that our US reseller GnJ has preferred to wait and see - at the risk of missing the boat altogether.
The US de minimis rule, exempting parcels under 800$ from customs duties, ceases to apply to shipments from China and Hong Kong as of May 2. Once the systems to levy charges on millions of small parcels are in place, the rule is likely to be abolished altogether. This will alter the nature of web trading to USA completely.
As I see it, the role of a small-business US importer changes radically. Instead of buying bulk and paying the 20% duty on EU-made products, it makes sense to take in orders one by one and have the items sent direct to the end-customer. This as long as the de minimis rule is in place. After that – goodbye America?
If you're an American considering a TOOB or Metro, now's the time. The toob.fi site contains price information. A 15% discount for Forum Members applies, as before.
Cheers,
MarkkuLast edited by Gitterbug; 04-04-2025 at 04:41 PM.
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04-04-2025 05:37 AM
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Thanks, Markku.
I picked up a repaired guitar (crack from drying out – the heat in my apartment had been turned way up while I was out of the country) from Rudy's yesterday, and explained to them the whys and wherefores of the Toob speakers – the guys there immediately called up your website, and oohed and aahed over the offerings (especially the prices). Rudy's doesn't sell small amps like the SB or the Raw Dog, but they were very interested to hear about them. Then they started talking about how the future of amplification was in gear like this – smaller, lighter, easier to carry. Of course, this is a shop in New York City.
But I'm going to try to take my 8" metro with the Raw Dog 250 (and maybe the SBUS as well) if I can get Dave (the guy who approves purchasing) to give me some time.
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Paul, thank you very much! Alas, your illustrious leader does his best to complicate our lives.
Visiting Rudy's a dozen or so years ago and trying out real D'Angelicos was an unforgettable experience. I wasn't in the business then but tried to reach Rudy's (and quite a few other US vendors) 3-4 years ago. Not one cared to respond.
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I remember your reaching out. Perhaps if they can actually get their hands on one it may make a difference.
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It's my experience from eg Anderton's in UK and Truetone in Santa Monica that what excites the sales personnel doesn't necessarily appeal to the decision-making level. Early on, Thomann was interested on the basis of favorable reviews in the German Gitarre+Bass magazine, but we could not agree on pricing. Subsequently, Thomann must have sold scores of SuperBlocks and BAM200s to Toob and Metro users.
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We vacillate between crying and laughing. But mostly worrying. My cousin spent his life in fed orgs generously helping others in far away 3rd world lands. Had every exotic disease you can name. Now "we"'re pulling the plug on them. It's a real shame.
Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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France tried this after Brexit (the limit was set at 150€). I've avoided ordering knowingly from outside the EU after I got slapped with an almost 50% extra cost at the door on a 15Ca$ shipment but none of the A'zon orders that turned out to ship from China got charged. Impossible to tell if they're being processed and China pays the bill, or if they just go through. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I did read about Dutch plans being discussed to do this too (possibly only for shipments from China). Not to make extra money, but to disrupt the delivery flow enough that vendors go back to bulk shipping with local distribution. So that plan would probably involve not setting up systems to process the current influx efficiently but rather to "tarpit" it. You'd still get the extra income but without the cost plus it should create some non-governmental jobs. Of course it's also better for the environment which may make it a no-go for the current US administration...
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I pulled the trigger on a Toob Metro BG+ a couple of weeks ago; it took me longer to make up my mind about which one to choose than it did to get the speaker once it was shipped! I have to admit I suffered from a bit of small speaker anxiety, having strongly preferred 12" to 8" speakers and this one was even smaller.* The quality of construction is outstanding. The tube itself, as I understand it, is a construction product but everything else is custom-made for this purpose. The grill is very protective and looks nice, does not seem to adversely affect sound reproduction at all. It seems like it could tumble down a flight of stairs without suffering damage, although I'm not going to intentionally test that theory.
The one I have is all black and very understated, not drawing attention to itself. it comes with a wire leg for horizontal placement, lifting the front of the speaker a couple of inches for better sound dispersion. It also has three legs for standing upright, which is how I've been using it.
I went with this particular model because I liked the idea of being able to stand it vertically and, indeed, I really like how that works. It does not sound at all small and seems to fill the room gracefully; beaming seems to be a minimal issue unlike many traditional speakers, which I think makes the vertical position work. I have wanted to try this for a long time after reading about Johnny Smith's "Fountain of Sound" Ampeg amp. I think there is some passive radiation of bass and maybe lower mids laterally from the tube itself as well as coming out of the speaker at the top and the port on the bottom. I have wanted to have the experience of being surrounded by sound instead of the sound coming from "over there," rather like playing acoustically. This comes close to that.
The tonal response seems to be very even across the speaker's response range (60 Hz-4 kHz)- not as flat as an FRFR speaker. It seems to round the top of the tone off in a way that's flattering for jazz guitar. It is maybe a little less efficient than some other speakers that Markku offers and seems to maybe want an amp with greater output.
I have used it with my Acoustic Image Clarus 2r, which is not a very "electric" sounding amplifier through any speaker. My nylon string (Takamine EC-132C with the Cool Tube preamp) sounded better through that amp and the Toob than it has through any other combination I have ever tried in the last 15 years. It was simply stellar. The Clarus was not as good with my electric guitars, but that's true with any cabinet and that head (RE 12", Redstone 8"). I tried plugging my tweed Deluxe into the Toob, which was not all that successful; that is a pretty primitive amp circuit and not really able to take advantage of anything but the speakers it was designed with in 1957. I took delivery of a Quilter 101R mini amp which sounded really excellent through the Toob, using the "capacitor trick" was helpful in taming the inherent brightness of the amp, but was not able to get loud enough while clean enough. The Quilter will be going back to Guitar Center and I will be trying a DV Mark Raw Dawg 250. If I was only going to use the 101R in my living room or for small group rehearsals, I would've kept it; it sounded that good. It flatters my ES-175 and sounded very good with my carvetop/floater, which has been a difficult guitar to get a well-balanced electric sound with.
Overall I am both pleased with and surprised by the Toob Metro BG+ so far. It sounds much bigger than it is and belies much of what I thought I knew about speaker cabinet design. It is simple in concept and seems very hardy. Portability is amazing. If I needed maximum loudness, I might have perhaps gone with one of Markku's other speaker options, but I wanted the vertical placement option which seems to be an excellent choice.
* I have to laugh, when writing that stuff it sounds like a covert advertisement for erection pills or testosterone boosters or something. "Blue Chew, baby!"
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I am currently mostly using two 6.5 Toobs, the BG+ and the FRII+, chained together for a stereo setup and a fuller sound, since most of my gigs are hotel duos, and i play with a looper and an octave pedal. Also many gigs are in open spaces so it's nice to have the extra volume. Right now i am driving the BG+ with the Bam200 bass amp, and slaving the FRII+ speaker to it, but i'm getting a quilter us so i'll have a tiny amp head on each speaker and use the Boss looper to drive them both. But i've done gigs with just the BG+ too, and it did fine as long as the volume remained in jazz settings (cause we play lots of pop stuff as well).
Also waiting for a couple of tiny stands for my gopro cameras, and i'll post some videos of live gigs with them. It's just great, sound is great, and it's like carrying nothing. If anything with the BG+ you have to be careful not to push the bass too high, otherwise it can become boomy, a 6.5 speaker!! Funny thing is sometimes there are musicians in the audience and are always dazzled to see that much sound coming out of this tiny package!
Similar to the ZT Lunchbox thing!
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Toobs are problem solvers. Here’s my PA / sound reinforcement system at our monthly Whole Foods gig - easy to carry, easy to control, and easily heard at the far end of a large supermarket. Originally Posted by Alter
A pair driven by a mixer / preamp into a stereo power amp make the big guitar sound that Martin Taylor favored years ago when he played a stereo Yamaha archtop. The sound is astoundingly fine, and you can use stereo effects (chorus, reverb etc) sparingly to warm up and enlarge a dry room. The mixer takes mics as needed, and I use my ART preamp into it to warm up the guitar because my old analog Samson mixer is as dry as toast.
For quiet gigs in large spaces, I chain them from the BAM. Two speakers putting out the same SPL only increase the total level by 3 dB at most, so they’re not much louder than one. But placed to each side, widely spaced, and pointed in different directions, they cover a much broader area without being too loud for listeners close to them.
I too use a BG+ and an FR II+ together. I also have an early 10” Toob, but the BG+ does fine. As a bonus, a medium sized gym bag holds a pair of Metros with legs etc, a class D head, and cables.
A Metro makes a great stage monitor, especially now that they have legs for upright firing. My BG+ and 10 are too old to have these, so I use the FR II+ when I need a monitor for the band.
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Gosh, thanks for the testimonials, guys! The latest Metro 6.5BG+ will ship tomorrow, to Wyoming of all crammed places. So far, no problem getting those through to the US. However, I can make a few copies only until getting a new batch of pipe in late June. July is Finland's holiday month and my family expects me to be a good grandpa then.
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Being a good grandpa is one of the most important jobs there is.
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To add on to this: the DV Mark Raw Dawg 250 arrived on Wednesday, so I got to use it for two rehearsals- one with a jazz band of adult learners that tends to be a little too loud for the room it's in and the other a duo rehearsal with a bassist. Again using it in the vertical position, really liking the sound dispersion and being able to hear myself much better than with a speaker pointing parallel to the ground. Keeps me from being too loud in the mix, I think, and just more enjoyable for me. Well, to the extent that I'm able to enjoy my own playing which is hit and miss.
The DV Mark is significantly louder than the Quilter 101R. As was pointed out in another thread, the sound between the DV Mark and the Quilter is not radically different, I would say the Quilter is a bit more natively Fender-y with everything set flat, but needed the "capacitor trick" to cut the excessive highs. The DV Mark is much larger and heavier, being basically the same size and heavier than the BG+. I've attached it with Velcro to the mounting plate on top of the speaker, although with the weight of the amp it is not as secure as I'd like and I'll probably have to add another strip of Velcro.
This probably won't work in every situation that I'll ever play in, but it's gonna work really well for a lot of them I think.
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There is no law that requires attaching the head to the Toob. It can be placed on the floor, a chair, or whatever is convenient and seems safe. The speaker cable provided with the Toob is very short, but it's not rocket science to make up a longer one. I have several, with different connectors and lengths. I use power extension cords of 16 gauge or larger, cut to size and the ground wire cut back, just because I have them on hand and it's convenient.
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Oh yeah, I've got a longer speaker cable that I used with other cabinets that I've had. It's just really convenient to have the head attached to the cab and have it all fit in a pretty small bag.
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Thanks for the update. Yeah the insanity with tariffs...I can't even keep up with anymore (I'm in the US).
But, as usual, you're on the vanguard with all things detailed, Markku.
Just about ready to complement my 6.5BG with a 6.5FR II (probably stick another TC BAM 200 on top....enough headroom, and doesn't color the sound too much....the combination is excellent for Hammond organ [clonewheel...a Crumar Mojo Classic with JG3 24-note pedalboard] as well as guitar....so time to go stereo!).
If I ever am enticed to play out again, that's perfection for me....can't exactly take studio nearfields on stage (I just use KRKs at home on floor stands, and since the late unpleasantness, and impending doom and me well on the way wrong side of forty....not worth it to me any more, unless something special comes up or a friend needs/wants a favor, and the sound from the JBL Eon 15 (my go-to live monitor(s)) is....nowhere *near* a dialed-in TOOB. Or two! The JBL(s) are loud as hell, but no shade, I just don't like listening to them at home, either practicing or jamming.
Can always pass XLR to FOH if needed through the mixer (Mackie 1202VLZ....a rugged tank!.....should probably buy another smaller mixer, especially since this cheap little Donner line mixer is starting to fail....another Mackie, but with six channels, no need for much gain nor EQ...well, we'll see....the Mackie users' manuals are just so damned amusing!), but I want the sound on stage coming from the Metro. But it's jazz, so smaller venues are the norm (for me, assuming I ever get an offer I can't refuse!).
Pick up one handed — hell, pick it up with one *finger*! — put TOOB + microamp, plus cables and a pedal or three into a padded snare drum soft case, and good to go.
Kiitos! These cabinets are works of art.
Not much for sentiment, but I saved the shipping box my 6.5BG+ came in, with Markku's trademark handwritten details about the product.Last edited by jackalGreen; 06-09-2025 at 12:23 AM.
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Kiitos![/QUOTE]
Kiitos itsellesi! (Thanks to you! in Finnish)
I may be shooting my own leg, but I've become so accustomed to gigging with Metros that whenever I try to use a 10" or 12" Toob, I feel uncomfortable. Our old boys' swing quintet admittedly plays mainly at senior homes and pensioners' clubs, so the audience is dead silent (no pun intended.) There's a place for the larger ones - louder rock and party bands, and my sons take care of those - but we have comfortably addressed triple-digit crowds. The pianist and drummer are well over 80, half-deaf and heavy-handed. I'm currently looking for ways to wrestle in a 200W SICA 8L 2SL for a SuperMetro 8BG+, without going broke with tooling for new rims. 3D printing might be the solution. One such prototype went to a NY multi-instrumentalist. Initial feedback was good; must get in touch with him now that a few months have passed. He's got a 6.5BG for comparison.
Cheers,
Markku
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And if that speaker would be available in 4 Ohm, it would be perfect for those tiny class D amps which provide 200W@4Ohm, like the BAM200. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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Correct, in principle. However, the increment in SPL is barely audible, and 4 ohm excludes daisy-chaining a pair of 8 ohm speakers. As for the SICA 8L 2SL, some European vendors claim to have a 4 ohm version in stock, while the current factory datasheet is for 8 ohms only. Originally Posted by bluenote61
I'm sure the common 200W bass amps can safely handle 4 ohm, but some other micro-amps don't. For example, Orange's Micro Terrors were originally claimed to be ok with 4 ohm, but the rib was subsequently raised to 6 and, finally, to 8 ohm. Small amp specialist Greg Ruggiero in NY has fried several micros of different makes.
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Class D amps are not like traditional tube & SS amps in putting twice the power into half the load. Most D amps can push a bit more, but they lack the power supply reserve we’re used to in our old amps. Originally Posted by bluenote61
Class D amps lack the heavy iron transformers and massive PS caps to make and store power beyond what they need to achieve their rated output.. They trade that off for much higher efficiency, lower weight, and smaller size. The difference between required line power and output power in traditional amps (measured in Watts) is almost all either stored in the caps or lost to heat. So the PS is grossly oversized in order to both amplify your guitar’s signal and heat up the room.
Almost all tube amps use output transformers to match the output impedance to the speaker load. Some output transformers have multiple taps on the output winding, so there are 4, 8, and 16 Ohm wires coming out of them and the correct one is used for a given speaker load. Output power and distortion are the same at all impedances, if the correct tap is used. Many OTs are made for one output impedance, which is the reason why Fender tube amps with the same output but different speaker impedances use different output transformers. If you connect a 4 Ohm load to an 8 Ohm tap on a tube amp and run it hard, the distortion will be well above that at 8 Ohms. It will sound weird and may well fail because the PS and/or output tubes won’t hold up at the higher currents. The OT also overheats and will fail if subjected to this repeatedly. Yes, I know it’s common practice to do this. But not everybody gets away with it.
SS amps drive the load directly, so halving the impedance of the speaker load means that the amp has to provide twice as much current to reach the same output power. Not all traditional SS amps can double the power into half the Ohms. The PS is the limiting factor, and it costs $ to beef it up. So inexpensive or cheaply built SS amps with marginal power supplies will run out of power, overheat, and fail if run wide open into low impedance loads (4 Ohms or lower). Most higher quality, higher cost SS amps do make twice the power into half the load with similar distortion - and they have output protection fuses or circuitry.
The switching power supplies in class D amps are sized to provide the power required to reach their rated output. To stay small and cool (and to keep production cost down), most are not overbuilt and cannot go much above their rated output into any load. Even most of the best ones are rated at one output regardless of load. Quilters are “optimized” (in their words) for 8 Ohm loads and make the same power into 4 or 8. The Little Jazz and Jazz 12 are rated at 45W into 8 Ohms and 60 into 4. I haven’t seen any output impedance qualifier from TC for the BAM 200.
Be careful with class D amps like the BAM. Doubling output power means a 3 dB increase in SPL at most, and that assumes that everything else in the chain can perform as well at twice the power. A 3 dB increase is barely audible. I suspect that a BAM will push close to 200W into 8 Ohms if run wide open and driven hard, but little if any more than that into 4. Running it that hard into 4 Ohms (and probably into 8) in an attempt to exceed this will just overheat the amp and trigger its thermal shutdown protection. These are rated to sell. Getting 200 Watts out of an amp this cheap means you’re at its ragged edge.
You can’t get a quart out of a pint bottle.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 06-08-2025 at 12:58 PM.
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I never stated in my post that running a class D amp on 4 ohms instead of 8 ohms will double the output power. I am aware that this will not be the fact on SS amps. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
My thinking was in terms of more headroom...
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I never said that you did. But I did say that many non-class-D SS amps will, in fact, put twice the power (or very close to it) into half the load. Unlike traditional SS amps, class D amps do not. Based on the lack of a manufacturer’s spec for output power into different loads, and using my own BAM200 at high volume into one or two 8 Ohm Toobs in parallel, the BAM (like the Quilter Tone Block / OD202) appears to make the same 200W maximum output regardless of load. There is no more headroom into 4 Ohms than into 8 because there’s no more power available. Originally Posted by bluenote61
Headroom is usually used to mean clean volume before breakup. But class D output stages don’t do gradual, controllable, usable breakup. They’re clean to their limits, and when they clip they sound terrible. O/D, distortion, and similar effects in class D amps are all in the preamp stages ahead of the class D section. The distortion is already in the signal when it reaches the class D circuitry. Quilter does this very well.
The gain pot on the BAM200 and similar amps lacking added O/D circuitry like Quilter’s is to adjust the input sensitivity for various pickups. It’s there to let you use all available power while staying below the limit with active or passive pickups, regardless of their output levels. You can’t dial in usable distortion by upping the gain and dropping the output level.
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The class D AI Clarus SL-R I gig with does 300 WRMS into 8 ohms, 500 into 4. A Mesa D800 does 400@8, 800@4. Can’t generalize.
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No disrespect intended, but I think you can. What I said is that Originally Posted by Danny W.
I said that most class D amps don't do this, and pointed out earlier that only the best ones make significantly more power into lower impedance loads because they have more robust power supplies and circuitry. They're expensive because they're more sophisticated and built better than the garden variety class D amps. That Mesa will actually drive a 2 Ohm load well and achieve maximum output in the process. There are few class D amps at any price and quality level that can do this gig after gig. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The post to which I responded was about a BAM200, a cheap little amp that's designed and built very well for its price point. But AI and Mesa are light years ahead of it and most other class D amps under $500. The Quilter Superblock US ($319) and the TC BAM200 ($119) are typical of the breed at that price point. They make what they make into any load they can drive, but the lower the impedance the hotter they get and the more likely they are to trigger thermal shutoff when pushed. The basic Gnome and the Elf are a bit further upscale and make 130W into 8 and 200 into 4 Ohms. Still, there are many web forum posts about Elf shutdown when pushed. The Gnome Pro is 180 into 4 and 300 into 8. The D800 is in a different league at $1k. Even the Henriksen Blu and Bud at $1200 and $1600 make 120W with no load specified. I recall earlier specs that said they did 140W into 4 Ohms, but that's not even audible and seems not to be in their literature anymore.
The moral of the story is to look at the specs carefully before buying or modifying. Switching from an 8 to a 4 with a head like the BAM200 or the SBUS will not boost SPL at all. And those who do so in an atempt to get more volume will run the head too high and too hot, with predictable consequences. More importantly, even a doubling of output power only gives a barely audible 3 dB increase in SPL at the most. You get what you pay for.
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Are all AI amps class D power amps? I have a Clarus 2r SIII that I've had for 15+ years, it seems to be able to run all day without a glitch. Really reliable amp. IIRC they made their own power amps rather than using an available module (e.g., ICEpower). I'm not thrilled with the preamp sound for electric guitar, but then they were mainly designed for upright acoustic bass amplification. My DV Mark Raw Dawg sounds much better for electric guitar, but the AI sounds just wonderful with my classical/piezo and my Toob.
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