How much does checking on the top of a guitar impact the value?

[pawlowski6132]

So I'll try to keep this concise.

I sold an old archtop on reverb. I allowed the The buyer to return it.

The guitar now has massive checking all over the top. Interestingly though doesn't appear on the sides or the back.

I'm considering a partial refund amount but I'm struggling with how to quantify how much this has devalued the guitar.

Thoughts?

And yes, for the moment, I'm assuming that this was caused by the buyer and not me on its return.

[jazzshrink]

Before (the sale) and after (the return) photos would be most helpful.

[pawlowski6132]

Before (the sale) and after (the return) photos would be most helpful.

Yep I have those. Before it went out zero checking. When I looked at it on its return massive checking.

[pawlowski6132]

Is this always caused by changing temperature or, since it's not really on the back and sides could it be caused by trauma? Getting smacked around etc.?

[Mick-7]

So I'll try to keep this concise.

I sold an old archtop on reverb. I allowed the The buyer to return it.

The guitar now has massive checking all over the top. Interestingly though doesn't appear on the sides or the back.

I'm considering a partial refund amount but I'm struggling with how to quantify how much this has devalued the guitar.

Thoughts?

And yes, for the moment, I'm assuming that this was caused by the buyer and not me on its return.

You shouldn't assume anything, before assigning blame, you'll need to determine when the checking occurred.

When I had a problem with a guitar I'd purchased from a Reverb seller, Reverb required me to take photos of it to document any features that I claimed did not match the seller's description. Did the buyer of your guitar provide photos of it before returning it to you? You need these because the checking may very well have happened in transit, caused by changing weather conditions during shipping, in which case you'll need to collect your loss from the shipping insurance company rather than from the buyer. I presume the return delivery was insured? This is a problem that Reverb should be helping you with, your listing fee pays for such sales support.

This always caused by changing temperature or, since it's not really on the back and sides could it be caused by trauma?

Trauma would be likely to produce other damage, is there any? Was the guitar packed properly when returned? What was the condition of the return shipping box? There are a few possibilities, like I said, you need adequate documentation, this is not something you should have to theorize about.

[pamosmusic]

You shouldn't assume anything, before assigning blame, you'll need to determine when the checking occurred.

When I had a problem with a guitar I'd purchased from a Reverb seller, Reverb required me to take photos of it to document any features that I claimed did not match the seller's description. Did the buyer of your guitar provide photos of it before returning it to you? You need these because the checking may very well have happened in transit, caused by changing weather conditions during shipping, in which case you'll need to collect your loss from the shipping insurance company rather than from the buyer. I presume the return delivery was insured? This is a problem that Reverb should be helping you with, your listing fee pays for such sales support.

Yeah I used to do the shipping for a luthier and this is pretty much it.

[pamosmusic]

What’s the hole in the third photo?

And did the dude say he was returning it because of damage? Or no mention of the damage?

[pawlowski6132]

The checking occurred sometime between when I shipped it and when I got it.

The buyer did not have any photos of what the guitar looked like at least not on the top when it was received in fact, the buyer never even received it it went directly to his luthier.

I don't know who to blame but I know it wasn't me and I shouldn't have to pay for that. I would like to be compensated for the reduced value of the guitar I reached out to you guys to give me some idea of what that might be worth.

I can work out all the details and I have been in touch with reverb but I'm looking for a third opinion from you guys.

What is it worth 20% of the value of the guitar? A flat $1,000 what would you consider reasonable if you were the buyer and I was going to issue you a partial credit?

And if he thinks the shipper did it he had the contract with the shipper so it will be on him to get the money back from the shipper.

[pamosmusic]

The checking occurred sometime between when I shipped it and when I got it.

The buyer did not have any photos of what the guitar looked like at least not on the top when it was received in fact, the buyer never even received it it went directly to his luthier.

I don't know who to blame but I know it wasn't me and I shouldn't have to pay for that. I would like to be compensated for the reduced value of the guitar I reached out to you guys to give me some idea of what that might be worth.

I can work out all the details and I have been in touch with reverb but I'm looking for a third opinion from you guys.

What is it worth 20% of the value of the guitar? A flat $1,000 what would you consider reasonable if you were the buyer and I was going to issue you a partial credit?

And if he thinks the shipper did it he had the contract with the shipper so it will be on him to get the money back from the shipper.

Realistically probably not 20% of the value of the guitar. You'd probably need to take it to someone to determine that the damage isn't just cosmetic.

I had some junk like this happen at my work and the money that ended up changing hands on it probably never really exceeded 10% ... or thereabouts.

As for it being the customer's fault if it happened in transit to you, you're probably right but not sure that'll shake out in a positive way. I got to a point where I would honestly usually just send people a shipping label because I knew our insurance would take care of any potential hassle and holding money from people who don't want you to have it is just an unpleasant position to be in.

Reach out to Reverb.

[pawlowski6132]

What’s the hole in the third photo?

And did the dude say he was returning it because of damage? Or no mention of the damage?

Pickguard.

He's returning it because he didn't want to take on the repairs his luthier suggested.

[Alter]

I believe Reverb holds the seller responsible for any shipping damage and claims to the shipping company (or to Reverb if you used safe shipping), and not the buyer, who can choose between a partial or a whole refund.

Unfortunate outcome for a sale...

[pawlowski6132]

Thanks team.

I'll prolly go with $500 off refund.

[Cunamara]

Looks like a mid-teens Gibson oval hole archtop. Beautiful color! I have to say, to me checking is expected in a very old instrument with nitro lacquer and it doesn't bother me. A collector would have a different opinion, I'd guess. If I was buying, I suppose it might knock $500 off a $5000 vintage guitar.

[Mick-7]

Tough break... I'm curious, about how much would it cost to refinish the top?

I'd be nervous about shipping a guitar like this too far in the winter time, can imagine it sitting in some zero degree holding dock during transit before arriving at some much warmer clime. Anyone wrap a guitar in a thermal blanket if shipping it in the winter time?

[wintermoon]

It likely won't check unless exposed to sudden temp change, like being in a very cold environment, brought into a warm house and immediately removed from the box and case and exposed to warm temps w out acclimating.
Having it go from very cold into a warm house but left in the box/case overnight, at least 12 hrs imo, and opened the next day should be fine.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have no idea how much less it's worth. But, I can say this. I wouldn't buy a guitar that has that checking.

[pawlowski6132]

I have no idea how much less it's worth. But, I can say this. I wouldn't buy a guitar that has that checking.

Wow, that's telling.

[pawlowski6132]

Looks like a mid-teens Gibson oval hole archtop. Beautiful color! I have to say, to me checking is expected in a very old instrument with nitro lacquer and it doesn't bother me. A collector would have a different opinion, I'd guess. If I was buying, I suppose it might knock $500 off a $5000 vintage guitar.

Perfect. Thanks.

[Mick-7]

It likely won't check unless exposed to sudden temp change, like being in a very cold environment, brought into a warm house and immediately removed from the box and case and exposed to warm temps w out acclimating. Having it go from very cold into a warm house but left in the box/case overnight, at least 12 hrs imo, and opened the next day should be fine.

o.k., so if the seller has not warned the buyer that this could happen if they don't do what you suggested, would you expect the buyer to pay for it if it does?

I have to say, to me checking is expected in a very old instrument with nitro lacquer and it doesn't bother me.

I think you're the exception, most people will not pay that kind of money for a guitar with that defect.

[Marty Grass]

If your guitar has a nitro finish, it's a race to see what happens first, checking or your death. Everything ends up showing wear.

[Stringswinger]

Finish checking and a nitro guitar finish are like milk and cookies (pizza and beer?). They go together. I bought my Campellone from Vinny at a great price because it developed a finish check on the top and Vinny like his guitars to be perfect. Since I bought it, three more checks have developed in the top. The guitar has not been exposed to any trauma nor weather changes. Nitro sometimes just cracks.

I had a guitar with some finish checks repaired once. There is a chemical that can be applied to the finish that will cause the checks to go away in many (most?) cases. I imaging the cost to have an expert guitar repairman do this on a guitar with extensive finish checking would be very high. Refinishing a checked guitar may devalue the guitar more than the checking and sometimes a refinish will change the tone of the guitar a bit. On older, collectible guitars, refinishing can cause collectors to become disinterested. Which to me is strange, as both John D'Angelico and Jimmy D'Aquisto routinely refinished guitars. The finish is to protect the wood and if the finish is worn, those craftsmen thought protecting the wood was of prime importance. It is ironic that guitar collectors take an opposing view to the two most illustrious guitar builders of all time.

People pay extra money to buy guitars that have been artificially aged these days. This aging includes doing whatever it take to create finish checking in many cases. Go figure. Trying to figure out guitars is as much a fool's errand as trying to figure out women. Forget about it, it cannot be done.

Shipping guitars is a risky business and shit happens. Buying guitars sight unseen is pretty risky as well. Disputes often are a lose-lose. Nobody leaves the transaction happy. My experience with Ebay, Reverb and Paypal is that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

To the OP: Ten percent seems like a fair number for the devaluation to me. Good luck in getting it sorted. If it doesn't work out, just accept it and move on. Consider any loss part of the price of doing guitar trading through the internet.

[RLetson]

I'm trying to place the make/model/age of the guitar and coming up empty--round/oval-hole archtops almost universally have trapeze tailpieces rather than pin bridges. (The only pin-bridge archtops I can find are modern Ribbeckes.) The small holes are in what look like pickguard-mounting locations--and they look old to me. And the rosette has an early-Gibson vibe. But all the photos of old Gibson roundhole archtops show a familiar dark sunburst finish. Then there's that pin bridge, with its angled saddle.

What do you know about the guitar's provenance? Its mix of features is odd and interesting.

As for the checking, it's a pretty familiar phenomenon for those of us in the frozen north--it happened to my Goodall after I acquired it. But while I understand that there's a segment of the market that cares a lot about cosmetic issues, I find them less significant than structural matters. Though if blemishes or dings drive down the price of a guitar, I'll take advantage of that market fact-of-life for a guitar that plays and sounds good. I would have bought my Goodall with or without the checking. But then it's not "vintage," and in that marketplace cosmetics matter.

[Mick-7]

I had a guitar with some finish checks repaired once. There is a chemical that can be applied to the finish that will cause the checks to go away in many (most?) cases. I imaging the cost to have an expert guitar repairman do this on a guitar with extensive finish checking would be very high. Refinishing a checked guitar may devalue the guitar more than the checking and sometimes a refinish will change the tone of the guitar a bit. On older, collectible guitars, refinishing can cause collectors to become disinterested. Which to me is strange, as both John D'Angelico and Jimmy D'Aquisto routinely refinished guitars. The finish is to protect the wood and if the finish is worn, those craftsmen thought protecting the wood was of prime importance. It is ironic that guitar collectors take an opposing view to the two most illustrious guitar builders of all time.

Yeah, I figured you'd want to have an expert at finish repair do it, in which case the job will not be cheap.

If your guitar has a nitro finish, it's a race to see what happens first, checking or your death. Everything ends up showing wear.

I suppose that's true, "heavy finish checking" is a phrase often seen written on coroner's reports.

[Cunamara]

I think you're the exception, most people will not pay that kind of money for a guitar with that defect.

Hey, I'm exceptional! Finally!

To me checking is like wrinkles: proof of lived experience. Just as we wrinkle as we age, old musical instruments tend to check as they age. If I wanted a pristine guitar, I'd buy new not vintage. I am not particularly precious about guitars or most other belongings. A few dings, dents, scrapes are signs of life being lived. But then I am not a collector and that's a different mindset altogether, and one that's just as valid as mine. Someone has to curate and protect those fine old D'Angelicos, D'Aquistos, etc.

When I pull up to my final parking spot, hopefully I'll be used up, worn out and can say "wow, that was fun!" If I'd have wanted to leave a pretty corpse, I'd have died young. Well, a pretty corpse in my case was never in the cards... but the principle applies.

[Marty Grass]

The good news is that the top has less impairment to vibrate.

I had a Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith that I opened the case on before adequate warning. Checking happened. I brought it to my luthier for an opinion. He told me about the time he worked in Canada briefly in some Gibson facility. The new employees opened the chilled boxes and cases. He said you could here the cracking of lacquer. They learned immediately.

Here's someone showing how to do mega-checking.