How much does checking on the top of a guitar impact the value?

[deacon Mark]

I find that sometimes it depends on the guitar and possibly how the finish was mixed. I remember Hollenbeck always messing around with the finish mixture or nitro. He would go to great pains to get it right. He also felt that the longer the finish was cured before final buffing and set up the better. Many makers and putting out guitars very fast and much faster than I saw with the two makers I was around. Holllenbeck wanted the finish to be done over a period of 3-4 weeks under proper conditions. I believe this has much to do with how checking can happen even under no real change in environment.

My 1965 Barker is nitro and has no checking anywhere on it. I spend the first 16 years of life in Los Angles and the rest in the Midwest. I had it shipped here in January of all months, and it was not pack so good by my father. Lucky nothing happened the guitar was fine and the finish. Sudden changes are the worst, but a dropped guitar might do it too. Most Gibson I see from the 1990-2010 have little checking and I still think that might be the best QC era of Gibson.

[2bornot2bop]

Stating the obvious, but this is the risk that any seller takes selling, and shipping, any lacquer guitar in the dead of winter!

And if, while I hate to say this, you did not forewarn the buyer, and BEFORE shipping the guitar, NOT to open the package for at minimum 24 hours, the seller is responsible. For how else is the buyer to know if not first educated by the seller? This should be known by buyers, but many don’t have any clue.

[pawlowski6132]

Stating the obvious, but this is the risk that any seller takes selling, and shipping, any lacquer guitar in the dead of winter!

And if, while I hate to say this, you did not forewarn the buyer, and BEFORE shipping the guitar, NOT to open the package for at minimum 24 hours, the seller is responsible. For how else is the buyer to know if not first educated by the seller? This should be known by buyers, but many don’t have any clue.

I completely disagree. I also have never told the seller not to lean the guitar against a round table or it might fall, etc. I sent it NOT checked and it came back totally checked.
It's not my fault. I'm not paying for it.

That being said, this wasn't sent to the buyer. It was sent directly to his luthier to check out and he lives in Philly. He should have known better.

It was re-finished at Gibson in 1962 and has held up well for 65 years w/o checking until now.

[pawlowski6132]

I'm trying to place the make/model/age of the guitar and coming up empty--round/oval-hole archtops almost universally have trapeze tailpieces rather than pin bridges. (The only pin-bridge archtops I can find are modern Ribbeckes.) The small holes are in what look like pickguard-mounting locations--and they look old to me. And the rosette has an early-Gibson vibe. But all the photos of old Gibson roundhole archtops show a familiar dark sunburst finish. Then there's that pin bridge, with its angled saddle.

What do you know about the guitar's provenance? Its mix of features is odd and interesting.

As for the checking, it's a pretty familiar phenomenon for those of us in the frozen north--it happened to my Goodall after I acquired it. But while I understand that there's a segment of the market that cares a lot about cosmetic issues, I find them less significant than structural matters. Though if blemishes or dings drive down the price of a guitar, I'll take advantage of that market fact-of-life for a guitar that plays and sounds good. I would have bought my Goodall with or without the checking. But then it's not "vintage," and in that marketplace cosmetics matter.

Here's an example that sold recently.

Just a moment...

I'm guessing mine was originally black but went to Gibson in 1962 for a refinish, new fretboard, and a couple of other minor things.

[jazzshrink]

...That being said, this wasn't sent to the buyer. It was sent directly to his luthier to check out and he lives in Philly...

Did the luthier ship it back to you directly, or did the luthier send it to the buyer, who then returned it to you?

[pawlowski6132]

Did the luthier ship it back to you directly, or did the luthier send it to the buyer, who then returned it to you?

Came back to me directly from the luthier.

The guitar never made it into the buyer's hands.

[2bornot2bop]

I completely disagree. I also have never told the seller not to lean the guitar against a round table or it might fall, etc. I sent it NOT checked and it came back totally checked.
It's not my fault. I'm not paying for it.

That being said, this wasn't sent to the buyer. It was sent directly to his luthier to check out and he lives in Philly. He should have known better.

It was re-finished at Gibson in 1962 and has held up well for 65 years w/o checking until now.

Well, that’s new information. I didn’t read that you’d shipped it to the Luthier. I’ve sold and shipped too many guitars to mention, and if it’s being shipped in the winter I’ve always informed buyers not to open the package within 24 hours. But hey, that’s me.

But if you shipped it to the Luthier, and the buyer hasn’t even seen it, I can see where the buyer will balk at being charged $500 for a guitar he hasn’t even seen. Good luck getting some refund, but if Reverb is involved, that’s going to be a tough request.

And why are you saying you assume the checking was caused by the buyer, when you then say the buyer didn’t even see it? That’s inconsistent.

At the end of the day, shipping any lacquer guitar in the middle of Winter is a big risk.

[pawlowski6132]

Well, that’s new information. I didn’t read that you’d shipped it to the Luthier. I’ve sold and shipped too many guitars to mention, and if it’s being shipped in the winter I’ve always informed buyers not to open the package within 24 hours. But hey, that’s me.

But if you shipped it to the Luthier, and the buyer hasn’t even seen it, I can see where the buyer will balk at being charged $500 for a guitar he hasn’t even seen. Good luck getting some refund, but if Reverb is involved, that’s going to be a tough request.

And why are you saying you assume the checking was caused by the buyer, when you then say the buyer didn’t even see it? That’s inconsistent.

Good luck getting some refund, but if Reverb is involved, that’s going to be a tough request.

I'm not asking permission to do this. I'm just issuing a partial refund. I have the cash. It's up to me how much I refund.

And why are you saying you assume the checking was caused by the buyer, when you then say the buyer didn’t even see it? That’s inconsistent

It's not inconsistent. You're taking me literally. In this situation, 'the buyer' means him or his agents acting on his behalf. There's only two parties to this transaction the buyer and the seller. Whether it was actually caused by the luthier, happened in transition somewhere (i have no idea what happened to the guitar once it left my car to UPS).

[Mick-7]

Good luck getting some refund, but if Reverb is involved, that’s going to be a tough request.

I'm not asking permission to do this. I'm just issuing a partial refund. I have the cash. It's up to me how much I refund.

If it was sold on Reverb, they control the terms of sale and the handling of claims, i.e., their decision on refunds is binding. If they decide that a full refund is warranted but you only issue a partial one, they may ban you from ever selling on the site again - and they can have any online payment reversed.

[pawlowski6132]

If it was sold on Reverb, they control the terms of sale and the handling of claims, i.e., their decision on refunds is binding. If they decide that a full refund is warranted but you only issue a partial one, they may ban you from ever selling on the site again - and they can have any online payment reversed.

They can't extract funds that don't exist.

[pawlowski6132]

Not sure what that means, was the money wired to you? That's really the only form of payment that can't be reversed; banks, PayPal, etc., can reclaim payments they transacted, one way or another.

I have a dedicated checking account that I move money in and out of. I have only the amount of my partial refund in there. My card on file is attached to this account also.

So, they most they can get is what I allow them access to.

And yes, they can close my Reverb account if they want.

[jazzshrink]

You seem hellbent on making the buyer pay for something he had no control over and had little to no involvement in. Contact the luthier. Was there checking or other signs of damage when they received it? If "yes," then you the seller should file a claim with UPS that the guitar was damaged en route to the luthier. If "no," then you the seller should file a claim that the guitar was damaged en route to you from the luthier. The buyer never had possession of the guitar, so I don't believe he can be held legally responsible for any damage. Frankly, your rationale that "I can do what I want 'cause I already have his money" is troubling. I encourage you to do the right thing, not what seems easiest.

[pawlowski6132]

You seem hellbent on making the buyer pay for something he had no control over and had little to no involvement in. Contact the luthier. Was there checking or other signs of damage when they received it? If "yes," then you the seller should file a claim with UPS that the guitar was damaged en route to the luthier. If "no," then you the seller should file a claim that the guitar was damaged en route to you from the luthier. The buyer never had possession of the guitar, so I don't believe he can be held legally responsible for any damage. Frankly, your rationale that "I can do what I want 'cause I already have his money" is troubling. I encourage you to do the right thing, not what seems easiest.

I'm shocked people here aren't understanding this.

There's me and the buyer. When the guitar left, it wasn't damaged. When it came back it was damaged. I'm supposed to pay for that???

Honestly, I don't know why people here don't get that.

making the buyer pay for something he had no control over and had little to no involvement in

And I did have involvement????? He had 100% involvement. HE bought the guitar. HE agreed to the terms. HE had me sent the guitar to the luthier HE picked out. My agreement was with the buyer. I couldn't care less about anything else.

Was there checking or other signs of damage when they received it? If "yes," then you the seller should file a claim with UPS that the guitar was damaged en route to the luthier

No clue. They did a bad job documenting the instrument when it arrived. And, 200% likely that the checking was caused because the luthier didn't let it acclimate to the changing temperature between the delivery check and his shop. In other words, the carrier didn't do anything wrong and it was delivered just like it left. The carrier didin't cause any damage. They're not reimbursing anybody for anything.

If "no," then you the seller should file a claim that the guitar was damaged en route to you from the luthier
Yes!!! He should try to do that if he wants.

The buyer never had possession of the guitar, so I don't believe he can be held legally responsible for any damage
So wrong.

Frankly, your rationale that "I can do what I want 'cause I already have his money" is troubling. I encourage you to do the right thing,
Which is what? Bend over and take it?? I went ABOVE and BEYOND to pack and ship this guitar so it would arrive safe and sound to the buyer. I didn't get the same consideration and it came back all fucked up and he gets off scott free???

I will recommend the the buyer try to recoup what I'm holding back from his luthier.

Think about any other situation. Imagine you go to guitar center, buy a guitar, take it to your luthier, he fucks it up, you take it back to guitar center and say, here, I don't want it. What do you think they're gonna say??

[wintermoon]

I'm sure you were trying to be accommodating but I'd never send anything to a third party, just asking for more hassle and some platforms won't side w/ you in a claim unless it's sent directly to the buyer.
I'd have warned the buyer about possible checking but I agree it isn't your fault and not really your responsibility to do so.
I'm pretty surprised a luthier wouldn't let it acclimate if that's what happened.

[2bornot2bop]

I'm shocked people here aren't understanding this.

There's me and the buyer. When the guitar left, it wasn't damaged. When it came back it was damaged. I'm supposed to pay for that???

Honestly, I don't know why people here don't get that.

making the buyer pay for something he had no control over and had little to no involvement in

And I did have involvement????? He had 100% involvement. HE bought the guitar. HE agreed to the terms. HE had me sent the guitar to the luthier HE picked out. My agreement was with the buyer. I couldn't care less about anything else.

Was there checking or other signs of damage when they received it? If "yes," then you the seller should file a claim with UPS that the guitar was damaged en route to the luthier

No clue. They did a bad job documenting the instrument when it arrived. And, 200% likely that the checking was caused because the luthier didn't let it acclimate to the changing temperature between the delivery check and his shop. In other words, the carrier didn't do anything wrong and it was delivered just like it left. The carrier didin't cause any damage. They're not reimbursing anybody for anything.

If "no," then you the seller should file a claim that the guitar was damaged en route to you from the luthier
Yes!!! He should try to do that if he wants.

The buyer never had possession of the guitar, so I don't believe he can be held legally responsible for any damage
So wrong.

Frankly, your rationale that "I can do what I want 'cause I already have his money" is troubling. I encourage you to do the right thing,
Which is what? Bend over and take it?? I went ABOVE and BEYOND to pack and ship this guitar so it would arrive safe and sound to the buyer. I didn't get the same consideration and it came back all fucked up and he gets off scott free???

I will recommend the the buyer try to recoup what I'm holding back from his luthier.

Think about any other situation. Imagine you go to guitar center, buy a guitar, take it to your luthier, he fucks it up, you take it back to guitar center and say, here, I don't want it. What do you think they're gonna say??

And you had a choice not to ship a guitar in the middle of Winter knowing the risk, even refusing to remind the Luthier not to open the package within 24 hours. You seem to believe that your responsibility ends with merely shipping. I’m suggesting you owe it to your customers to do right by them. This is always how any sell works. I understand you’re not happy with what happened to the guitar. But whether or not you believe so, you had a hand in shipping this guitar and didn’t advise nor give the buyer any warning whatsoever. And you knowingly did this and seem to think that it was beyond your responsibility to do so. That’s disturbing, but hey, it’s your business. But you shouldn’t come here whining about what happened afterwards. My apologies for being blunt.

[pawlowski6132]

I'm sure you were trying to be accommodating but I'd never send anything to a third party, just asking for more hassle and some platforms won't side w/ you in a claim unless it's sent directly to the buyer.
I'd have warned the buyer about possible checking but I agree it isn't your fault and not really your responsibility to do so.
I'm pretty surprised a luthier wouldn't let it acclimate if that's what happened.

Yes, I'm an idiot. I don't know why I agreed to send it to the luthier.

[pawlowski6132]

And you had a choice not to ship a guitar in the middle of Winter knowing the risk, even refusing to remind the Luthier not to open the package within 24 hours. You seem to believe that your responsibility ends with merely shipping. I’m suggesting you owe it to your customers to do right by them. This is always how any sell works. I understand you’re not happy with what happened to the guitar. But whether or not you believe so, you had a hand in shipping this guitar and didn’t advise nor give the buyer any warning whatsoever. And you knowingly did this and seem to think that it was beyond your responsibility to do so. That’s disturbing, but hey, it’s your business. But you shouldn’t come here whining about what happened afterwards. My apologies for being blunt.

Fair enough. But remember, I wasn't wining (maybe a little) about what happened. I just wanted help trying to quantify how much the checking may have de-valued the guitar.

I wanted to group source a good average. I didn't want to just pull a number out of thin air or, be bias.

[pawlowski6132]

Quick update:

I processed my partial refund to my buyer on Reverb. I decided to NOT deduct anything for the top-checking. I thought maybe we'd split it ($250 each) but in the end, I deducted nothing (nice guy syndrome).

I thought, I'll just deduct what I was out of pocket ($530) for original shipping. That way I'm made whole financially.

But, I screwed that up because of the way the Reverb calculates the fees they add back. I thought I was calculating everything correctly but, in the end, made about a $200 mistake.

I figured, my fault so, that's how this story was going to end.

I took a chance and followed up with Reverb customer service (email) just to see if it was too late to fix but not expecting anything.

They actually called me. I told the CSR what was going on. Without going into more detail here, Reverb not only offered to make up the $200 mistake I made but, they also offered to give me an additional $250 to cover checking issue because they were sympathetic to my story.

30 minutes later I had a nice balance on my Reverb account and I initiated a transfer to my checking.

Super impressed with Reverb. Wow.

Don't say anything bad about them.

[2bornot2bop]

$530 to ship a guitar? That’s nuts. If you ever ship a guitar again, get yourself a FedEx account. It would cost approximately $150 maximum to ship.

[pawlowski6132]

$530 to ship a guitar? That’s nuts. If you ever ship a guitar again, get yourself a FedEx account. It would cost approximately $150 maximum to ship.

UPS is usually pretty good, they had a $250 'Large Package' surcharge and there was tons of insurance.

I put $175 in my ads a fixed shipping and that has almost always covered it. But, I'll look into FedEx too now.

[benhatchins]

Some great answers here! This is such an interesting topic, and I could honestly see myself diving deep into it and writing a whole essay about it one day. There’s so much to explore, different perspectives to consider, and a lot of thought-provoking ideas that could make for an engaging and well-structured piece. Since I’m not exactly the best writer in the world, I’d probably reach out to ukwritings.com/write-my-essay for some help and guidance to ensure it turns out well. Sometimes, having professional support can really make a difference in organizing thoughts and presenting them in a clear and compelling way.

[Joe Dampt]

Before assuming fault or putting a dollar figure on it, the first thing to sort out is when the checking actually appeared. Finish checking like this can show up very quickly from sudden temperature or humidity changes during shipping, and it often shows on the top first. Reverb will usually want clear photos showing the condition before shipment and after the return to establish that timeline. As for value, if the checking is cosmetic only and doesn’t affect the structure or sound, it’s generally a moderate hit, often in the 10–20% range, depending on the guitar and the buyer. I’d also recommend taking it to a vintage guitar shop for an appraisal, some offer them for free through their website.

[58flame]

You did the right thing.

[Noswad]

FYI - If there is a FedEx pack and ship store near where you live, you can have a package shipped there and pick it up when you get the delivery confirmation. That way you do not have to wait around all day at home.

[joeUK]

In direct answer to the question I’d ask for 20% minimum. If you put it for sale at 10% less, the number of interested parties drops vs the full price in original condition. Personally I don’t mind checking at all, but I would expect it to be cheaper.
Since it left your care it has been devalued. I hope you get it sorted.