Counting off a song in cut time

[rpjazzguitar]

Is there a standard way to do this? 4 half notes? 8 quarters?

[Jonah]

Is it not kind of a natural thing?

one… two… ah one two three four

[pingu]

what is ‘cut time’ ?

[pauln]

what is ‘cut time’ ?

It's 2/2 or a "C" with a slash across it, "alla breve", two beats per measure, the half note takes the beat. It is the "same pace" per tempo as 4/4, but with half note beats the rhythmic subdivisions are easier to read and manage... feels like reading it at "half speed" while actually playing it up tempo.

[rpjazzguitar]

It came up in big band.

Somebody got a bunch of charts and the band played through them, one at a time. The tune was new to me. In cut time (2/2). The tempo could have been X or 2X. I had no idea. So the leader counts 1 2 3 4. Some people think they're quarters, others thinks they're half notes. He could have said something -- never hurts -- but is there a standard understanding?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The count is typically the number of beats in a bar and the time is beats per minute. For cut time, the counted beats are one and two, the quarter notes between the 2 beats are “ands” and the spacers are called e and a. So if it’s in 2/2, the count would be “one..e..and..a..two..e..and..a” and the beats both get equal emphasis. In 4/4, the first beat is strongest, the third is less strong, and the two and three are weakest.

[Jonah]

It came up in big band.

Somebody got a bunch of charts and the band played through them, one at a time. The tune was new to me. In cut time (2/2). The tempo could have been X or 2X. I had no idea. So the leader counts 1 2 3 4. Some people think they're quarters, others thinks they're half notes. He could have said something -- never hurts -- but is there a standard understanding?

I did not get it was about 2/2…

classical conductors do not count at all and it works but in most cases with 2/2 the music is familiar or explained before

Brahms 4th symphony is a good example of alla breve.
long and wide breath.
If I had to count it I would do one…two, one..two (count two bars)

interesting also that great classical conductors do not have that distinctive meter mark gesture.
when I was young I played for a while in classical orchestra and the the ‘auftakt’ was so smooth that at the beginning I could not understand where to start, later I got used to it.
it is more based on breathe rather than meter.
Jazz band leaders normally just count the beats

[ragman1]

To be honest, I don't know. But if you count off a 4/4 tune as 1-2-3-4 and a waltz as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, why not count a cut-time tune as 1-2, 1-2 ?

[rpjazzguitar]

To be honest, I don't know. But if you count off a 4/4 tune as 1-2-3-4 and a waltz as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, why not count a cut-time tune as 1-2, 1-2 ?

One person I know with formal musical education says that count-ins are always two bars. If there's a pickup of, say, more than a quarter note's duration, then in cut time, the count would be 1-2-1. For me, that's so short that I may have trouble internalizing the tempo.

Nevershould's version works for me, but I never hear anybody do it that way. Maybe in other settings? But I never hear 1 e & uh in a count off.

I sometimes count, for 2/4, 1, 2, 1 & 2 & and I'm pretty sure some of the players look at me funny.

All that said, I agree that it makes sense to count 1 2 1 2. But, is that what usually happens?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

To be honest, I don't know. But if you count off a 4/4 tune as 1-2-3-4 and a waltz as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, why not count a cut-time tune as 1-2, 1-2 ?

You should. At the very least, it should be "one and two and one and two and".

[ragman1]

Which reminds me of the joke about the muso who named his daughters Anna 1, Anna 2, Anna 3...

[Tal_175]

Nevershould's version works for me, but I never hear anybody do it that way. Maybe in other settings? But I never hear 1 e & uh in a count off.

That's right. I've never heard someone count off that way either.

If they counted as 1 2 3 4 then my interpretation would be that they are counting in 4/4 time since there is a 3 and a 4. You wouldn't count two bars of 4/4 as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 so it wouldn't make sense to count two bars (or one bar) of 2/2 as 1 2 3 4.

So if they counted as 1 2 3 4, my inclination would be that they just counted two bars of 2/2 time like it's a one bar of 4/4.

[ragman1]

Since there seems to be so much uncertainty about it, it probably doesn't matter much as long as the band knows what's going on. There are lots of vids and whatnot where the lead says 'Ten, six, nine, go!'. Done it myself :-)

[ragman1]

Apparently, just for some trivia, the C on the score doesn't stand for 'Common' time. It comes from medieval church music where 3/4 was considered the most religiously perfect time signature (tempus perfectum) because it related to the Trinity and was notated as a whole circle. So any time other than 3/4 (tempus imperfectum) was notated as a cut circle, i.e. a C.

Not a lot of people know that.

[pamosmusic]

Not a lot of people know that.

Well I'll be.

Yeah -- never heard that one. Or if I heard it before, I wasn't listening

[Reg]

You should. At the very least, it should be "one and two and one and two and".

Yea.. pretty standard...two bar count off, 1st bar # of beats, 1 ... 2 ,
2nd bar should imply the feel of the beats ... 1 and 2 and, or just 1... 2 for slower feel etc...