How to theoretically explain good time feel?

[Litterick]

Eliane Elias to Peter Erskine:

"You Americans don't know how to swing samba; you all sound like TI-KA TI-KA TI-KA TI-KA."
I smirked and said, "Well then, how should it sound?"
She sang, "DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga."

From Peter Erskine's The Drum Perspective

[ragman1]

Does everything that isn't in line with your worldview just go in one ear and out the other?

It absolutely does when it's misquoted!

The phrase in parentheses '(explain time feel)' is yours, inserted into my quote.



But I didn't say explain, I was referring to 'quantify' which was your word. Quantify means to measure. Explain is something entirely different.



I know you want to get into some kind of thing but I'm not playing. Repeating your ideas again and again only fixes them more and more solidly in your own mind, which is a shame if they're not accurate in the first place.

And ragman not only thinks you can't explain it but you can't methodically learn any more than you have naturally.

I never said that - in fact, I said the contrary. I actually said... well, you can check back yourself, it's all there in black and white.

This is the last time I'm doing this correction stuff because it's brain-numbingly tedious. And I've got some playing to do!

[Bobby Timmons]

I friggin figured it out! The flexibility should accompany needed passages. And the degree of flexibility should also follow along with and correlate to the intensity of the passage.

Putting flexibility on non pivotal passages sounds hoakey and newb. Sounds like the tempo is changing unnecessarily or misused drama. If passages aren't pivotal, then stick with consistency/precision.

Likewise, not using flexibility on pivotal passages also sounds newb, sounds kind of poorly or unenthusiastically executed.

With the topic vid from PatrickWD bumped:

[Robertkoa]

....Is simply the ability to play in 6/8 time over 4/4 time.



If you can play similar to the hard swing of Benson or Brecker you can solo over this in 6/8 time and count it either in 6/8 or 4/4.

Most Jazz Guitarists play more behind the beat and will feel rushed at first by soloing over this but if you get used to it you can hear/ feel where Benson is coming from ...

And you can play over both beats in the drum demo easily .

This is Urban Swing ...

[ragman1]

How to theoretically explain good time feel?

You can't explain something you feel theoretically. It's that simple.

Which invokes the question why you want to explain something like a feeling at all, let alone theoretically. Say you've 'explained' it theoretically, which you can't anyway, what then? What does it change? I don't understand the advantage of it.

Why don't you try to understand it ACTUALLY, not theoretically? If it's a physical sensation, that can be explained through the nerves, sensations, the brain, and so on.

If it's something you feel emotionally that's a bit more difficult. It has to do with your thoughts, associations, memories, and all that.

So what? Again. once you've explained it, then what? I don't understand the point of all this, it's all rather meaningless to me.

[Christian Miller]

6/8 over 4/4 is an important one for sure. Also the Bembe bell pattern

Sing the bell pattern with this

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[Bobby Timmons]

It's simply the ability to play in 6/8 time over 4/4 time.

No, cross rhythms don't equal time feel. They're a great device for stimulating better rhythm tho.

[Bobby Timmons]

How to theoretically explain good time feel?

You can't explain something you feel theoretically. It's that simple.

Which invokes the question why you want to explain something like a feeling at all, let alone theoretically. Say you've 'explained' it theoretically, which you can't anyway, what then? What does it change? I don't understand the advantage of it.

Why don't you try to understand it ACTUALLY, not theoretically? If it's a physical sensation, that can be explained through the nerves, sensations, the brain, and so on.

If it's something you feel emotionally that's a bit more difficult. It has to do with your thoughts, associations, memories, and all that.

So what? Again. once you've explained it, then what? I don't understand the point of all this, it's all rather meaningless to me.

ragman, you are out-of-control.

[Christian Miller]

No, cross rhythms don't equal time feel. They're a great device for stimulating better rhythm tho.

Feeling 6/8 or even 3/4 while you play quarter or eight notes will absolutely help you with time feel. It's a well known exercise.

[Bobby Timmons]

I slightly misspoke when I wrote cross rhythms help rhythm rather than time feel also, but they are not what time feel is.

[ragman1]

ragman, you are out-of-control.

And you're not answering the question!

can't say I blame you

[Bobby Timmons]

And you're not answering the question!

I'm coming to get you ragman.

[Christian Miller]

I slightly misspoke when I wrote cross rhythms help rhythm rather than time feel also, but they are not what time feel is.

They are an aspect of time feel. You don’t need to play ‘cross rhythms’ to feel them. But that nuance helps swing.

Talk to drummers.


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[Bobby Timmons]

Music can, and often does, have good time feel without cross rhythms or cross rhythmic feel, so the 2 terms are not synonyms. But I'd agree that cross rhythms are an aspect of good time feel. You don't need to put cross rhythms in quotes, that is the definition. Last week we had a master class from Rory Stuart on them. His book:

Amazon.com

[frabarmus]

Here's my favourite "lesson" on time-feel... makes me shout with joy! I'm especially blown away by Herbie's feel in his solo: from 4:07 onwards. How would HE explain it? (Any on line footage?) I rember Pat, during his clinic at Ravenna in 1990 or 1991 which I attended: he was "explaining" simply by demoing and "doing", with a drummer on stage, and and a guitar in hand, just stretching his phrasing as if it were an "elastic" (sometimes even overdoing it some, in either direction: rushing and dragging etc.) along whatever the drummer was doing and telling us to volunteer on stage and try that...

[Christian Miller]

Music can, and often does, have good time feel without cross rhythms or cross rhythmic feel

Not if it’s jazz it doesn’t. If it doesn’t have this it ceases to jazz, honestly.

Part of swing feel is the amalgamation of 6/8 and 4/4. It’s the influence of West African rhythm.

The term crossrhythm to me, is kind of European. Cross rhythms for example in the music of Brahms or Beethoven are a device to create tension. Cutting across the rhythm, hence the term ‘crossrhythm.’

In jazz it’s a natural part of the rhythmic flux. A better term is “polymeter”. This is basic distinction between the rhythmic concept of West African diaspora and European musics.

While American jazz doesn’t have the ambiguity between 4/4, 3/4 and 6/8 that West African music has - Jazz swing is clearly in 4/4 (or 3/4 or whatever) - the polymetric lilt is still very much there. It’s a … what’s the word again… ah yes, FEEL.

All of this is well understood by educators, I would say. If you can’t hear it, practice singing for example, the bembe pattern while you play quarter notes at a medium tempo, and so on. It should jump out at you after a while.

Ask any of the people you are learning with and I would expect they would basically agree with me.

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[Bobby Timmons]

I see. I still don't think all grooves even in jazz necessarily have implicit polyrhythmic feel. But I see what you mean about how it's part of jazz in general and having the polyrhythmic lilt improves your time feel.

This has been another good bit of knowledge. The rhythmic flux..

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

....Is simply the ability to play in 6/8 time over 4/4 time.



If you can play similar to the hard swing of Benson or Brecker you can solo over this in 6/8 time and count it either in 6/8 or 4/4.

Most Jazz Guitarists play more behind the beat and will feel rushed at first by soloing over this but if you get used to it you can hear/ feel where Benson is coming from ...

And you can play over both beats in the drum demo easily .

This is Urban Swing ...

Peter Farrell explained in one YT video (not sure if it is still up) that you should imagine a Boogaloo rhythm (something like James Brown's funky drummer beat that was sampled a zillion times in what was called new school in hip-hop around 1990) in double time over a swing rhythm to get the Wes/Benson feel.

EDIT: Imagining means singing that beat internally and let your solo groove to it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think about time feel every day, because I'd like to improve it.

Really, very little has helped.

There have been a few verbal tidbits that were a little helpful, but nothing highly significant. In no particular order:

1. Time feel is about note placement. But it can't be notated in conventional notation because the exact placement depends on tempo.

2. Apparently, great time feel isn't just placing the note correctly but it's also about stretching and compressing the time in a musical way. Try to explain how to do that. Also, probably every player does it in their own way. Good luck.

3. There are a number of ways to make your time worse. So, it's worth recognizing and avoiding them. The following come to mind.

a. trying to play something you can't really execute at tempo.

b. trying to play something you don't know well enough

c. trying to play with a rhythm section that doesn't have good enough time feel. A great player may be able to put the rest of the band on his back, but that guy will be at a gig right now and won't be reading this. For mere mortals struggling to improve, it's hard to have better time feel than the group you're in.

Can I boil this down to useful advice? Probably not. But, I'd say this. If you can, somehow, book decent paying gigs you can pick the tunes and hire the sidemen. That should address all the issues.

[pauln]

I see. I still don't think all grooves even in jazz necessarily have implicit polyrhythmic feel. But I see what you mean about how it's part of jazz in general and having the polyrhythmic lilt improves your time feel.

This has been another good bit of knowledge. The rhythmic flux..

Wait... you're mad at rhythmic feel theory and an implicit polyrhythmic feel denier?

[Bobby Timmons]

Yes! Wait no! Yeah no Christian taught me something new about jazz time feel, it often incorporates polyrhythmic feel. I didn't know that, I thought it was some random device.

[pauln]

Yes! Wait no! Yeah no Christian taught me something new about jazz time feel, it often incorporates polyrhythmic feel. I didn't know that, I thought it was some random device.

I've had many a day when I felt like a random device.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

there is no theory here, only practice

[Christian Miller]

Peter Farrell explained in one YT video (not sure if it is still up) that you should imagine a Boogaloo rhythm (something like James Brown's funky drummer beat that was sampled a zillion times in what was called new school in hip-hop around 1990) in double time over a swing rhythm to get the Wes/Benson feel.

EDIT: Imagining means singing that beat internally and let your solo groove to it.

Sidewinder is an interesting one. That’s a boogaloo, and swung. Everyone seems to play it straight.


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[Christian Miller]

Here’s a wonderful interview that taught me a lot

Seems the whole thing is withdrawn (?) here’s a section reproduced elsewhere
Cruise Ship Drummer!: Ethan Iverson interview with Billy Hart


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