Accents Bebop and Swing

[sgcim]

Where in that volume is that statement about Joe Pass? I can't find it at least in Vol. 20. Nothing in there about Joe Pass "straightening out" Charlie Parker, though I've heard that quote... but never actually seen it firsthand.

I never saw some replies to my post from two months ago (one of the features this forum should have is notifications of replies to your post, rather than just 'likes'), but that statement about Pass was not in that volume. It was from either an interview with Raney I can't recall, or a private communication I had with his son.

[sgcim]

Btw we’ve had a long running thread about the nature of upbeat placement etc.

What I hear from Raney is even 8ths placed on the swing upbeat. His placement of the beat is somewhat relaxed - he’s a classic straight and late player from that point of view.

In terms of the accents I’m going to have a careful listen to Raney and Pass today with that in mind.

BTW one I feel is often very lacking in modern jazz players today is a concept of how to deal with medium tempo single time swing. Many younger players double the time for fear of being corny. It is my belief that practicing with a metronome on the 2 & 4 and being conscious of synching with the click will naturally lead to a corny dotted mid tempo feel, or a straightened out implied double time. If you aim instead to make the click swing, it'll work out better. But we are in the age of the DAW.

EDIT: here is a really nice medium-up example of what I love about Raney's swing feel. It's interesting rhythms, triplets in the line, laid back 8ths with cool accents, all of that. It's easy to see why Barry Harris likes him so much. I can definitely hear what he's talking about.

Here's Joe Pass playing medium swing with a rhythm section (not the easiest Pass to find lol.)

I think you'd have to be completely mental to say this doesn't swing magnificently, and most of us can only aspire to this level of feel... But, I can see the aesthetic difference that Raney is talking about. It's certainly more evenly articulated and I'd like to hear an example of how Jimmy would play at this exact tempo.

I love JR. I think he was a very forthright gentleman haha... Had strong ideas about how he wanted to play music, a real vision. Players now be like 'I play like this cos that's what my teacher said.'

I'm in the middle of renovations so can't dig out my copy of the Aebersold to check out the exact wording of what Jimmy said. What did he specifically say about the 'organ players'?

I can't find my Aebersold either, due to similar reasons, but JR was referring to the movement in the 60s when black players were emphasizing the more blues/funky rhythmic aspects of jazz, rather than Parker's approach to jazz.

[GuyBoden]

My thoughts on these points are set out in these three videos which nobody watched lol

Whether or not I have an idea what I am talking about the fact that three videos entitled 'how to swing' have had by the paltry standards of my channel, crap traffic compared to videos about harmony and technique, tells you all you need to know about the skewwhiff priorities of many budding jazz guitarists.

That's OK. The more people who get this, the more competition there'll be ;-)

I don't think any of this info is controversial. The 12/8 lilt of the music comes from the music's West African heritage.

I think these "How to Swing" Christian videos deserve some more attention.

[djg]

I can't find my Aebersold either, due to similar reasons, but JR was referring to the movement in the 60s when black players were emphasizing the more blues/funky rhythmic aspects of jazz, rather than Parker's approach to jazz.

yeah, i dont buy that. bird was a funky bluesy player. JR sounds like a straightend-out version of bird. GG was the first guitarist to really get bird. doug raney actually sounds closer to bird than his dad.

[Christian Miller]

I think I’ve calmed down a bit in the past few years lol

JR is kind of straightened out. His approach leans quite heavily on additive rhythm - odd groupings etc, which reminds me of the Tristano school. Which is funny because he hated the Tristano school lol.


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[PMB]

I think I’ve calmed down a bit in the past few years lol

JR is kind of straightened out. His approach leans quite heavily on additive rhythm - odd groupings etc, which reminds me of the Tristano school. Which is funny because he hated the Tristano school lol.


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Not just his playing. Raney's original tune, Motion has a very Tristano school vibe:

[Christian Miller]

Not just his playing. Raney's original tune, Motion has a very Tristano school vibe:

I mean given my only inkling of JR's opinion on Tristano is this classic zinger:

"There was another style going on at the time in Chicago. This was the Lenny Tristano style. We boppers didn’t think much of Lenny, and viceversa. As far as I could figure out, nobody liked Lenny’s music except Lee Konitz and his mother. (Lenny’s mother, not Lee’s.) He hated our music and we hated his, and everyone else hated all of us. Lee and Lenny left for New York City soon afterward, so we had the unpopular music scene all to ourselves."

I have no real idea... in the depressingly literal internet age it's all to easy to take a bit of old school humour far too seriously. There are others that could probably expand on that.

[Question]

Just a side note curiosity to this swing-eighth discussion:

It is interesting that when talking about the placement of the eighth note off-beat in swing, it is normally acknowledged that it is placed slightly later than the last note in a normal eighth-note triplet. (I know that there is a lot of variation here as well as being tempo/style/taste dependent) But when playing a line with all of the eighth-notes in a triplet the last note doesn't seem to be delayed.

As Christian was demonstrating the 6/8 Bembe rhythm and how there is a correlation to swing, it occurred to me that the triplet eighth's are all then placed mathematically "correct".

I personally haven't really analyzed swing feel very much, rather just listened, transcribed and having had the opportunity to play with lots of great players who had an authentic Jazz feel.

[PMB]

I mean given my only inkling of JR's opinion on Tristano is this classic zinger:

"There was another style going on at the time in Chicago. This was the Lenny Tristano style. We boppers didn’t think much of Lenny, and viceversa. As far as I could figure out, nobody liked Lenny’s music except Lee Konitz and his mother. (Lenny’s mother, not Lee’s.) He hated our music and we hated his, and everyone else hated all of us. Lee and Lenny left for New York City soon afterward, so we had the unpopular music scene all to ourselves."

I have no real idea... in the depressingly literal internet age it's all to easy to take a bit of old school humour far too seriously. There are others that could probably expand on that.

I've come across that Downbeat interview as well. Maybe Jon Raney can pitch in if he cares to divulge...

[Christian Miller]

Just a side note curiosity to this swing-eighth discussion:

It is interesting that when talking about the placement of the eighth note off-beat in swing, it is normally acknowledged that it is placed slightly later than the last note in a normal eighth-note triplet. (I know that there is a lot of variation here as well as being tempo/style/taste dependent) But when playing a line with all of the eighth-notes in a triplet the last note doesn't seem to be delayed.

As Christian was demonstrating the 6/8 Bembe rhythm and how there is a correlation to swing, it occurred to me that the triplet eighth's are all then placed mathematically "correct".

I personally haven't really analyzed swing feel very much, rather just listened, transcribed and having had the opportunity to play with lots of great players who had an authentic Jazz feel.

If it ain't broke...

I was thinking a good - and obvious - comparative study of swing styles would be Freddie Freeloader.

There's no doubt that I can sing the Bembe all the way through this, and that triplet/ 6/8 thing present in Jimmy Cobb's snare work very clearly. Cobb's ride (as Billy Hart said) tends to be pushed quarters (like PC) with fewer skip notes than Philly Joe, although he does move into a spang-a-lang for Coltrane's solo perhaps in response and to compensate for the fact that Trane's solo has less of that obvious 8th swing feel. He switches back to the quarters for the more conventional Cannonball.

Wynton is very tripletty to my ears, and has quite a pronounced inequality in a lot of his lines that's he's quite well known for, but there's also some playfulness there too - sometimes he straightens out a little and goes behind the beat.

Whereas Miles is sometimes locking into the swung 8th, and sometimes appears to be phrasing his 8th notes more across the beat, with straighter upbeats. It reminds me a little of Lester Young sometimes, and Miles is very much of the Prez school. Miles is generally a lot straighter than Kelly on his 8th notes wherever he's feeling the accents. That's interesting.

[joe2758]

yeah, i dont buy that. bird was a funky bluesy player. JR sounds like a straightend-out version of bird. GG was the first guitarist to really get bird. doug raney actually sounds closer to bird than his dad.

This is so interesting! Just the other day I was checking out Doug Raney and I thought "sounds more like GG than like his dad"

[Question]

@Christian

yes, it aint' broke and I am not trying to fix anything, it was just a curious observation!

I just observed that if a player (myself included) plays the off-beat eighth note slightly later than where it would normally be as the last eighth of an eighth-note triplet; when then playing a line using all three notes in the triplet, they tend to be divided evenly.

I am actually not very interested in analyzing this any further, it just occurred to me while watching your video.

This stuff is better learned in the real world.

[Spirit59]

JR's comment about Pass sounding "all straightened out" is in an mp3 recording of a private lesson that was floating around the internet for ages. I have it but I no longer have it up on the web (not paying for web hosting right now). I'll see what I can come up with.

Discussing time-feel is difficult and the most straight forward way to get it happening is to listen to your favorite artists *a lot* and try to "get it" at an intuitive level. Listen to an artist who's time-feel you admire and even if he's he known for playing behind the beat or accenting where ever, you'll also notice that they don't do it one way all of the time. It's not a recipe that you can follow. It's a very nuanced thing.

[djg]

This is so interesting! Just the other day I was checking out Doug Raney and I thought "sounds more like GG than like his dad"

he does. i find the connection fascinating. GG listened to jimmy early on. GG was later appreciated by and in fact changed the playing of two major jimmy raney followers, i.e. attila zoller and rene thomas. atilla mentioned how grant always liked the little vibrato that atilla had. rene thomas' change in style after GG is pretty dramatic. and last but not least there is doug who may actually be more influenced by rene than by his dad. similarities in lifestyle may have played a part too.

edit: holy shit, how could i have missed that.

[GuyBoden]

I'm very reluctant to mess about with improv 'Time Feel', because I don't really understand how 'Time Feel' in Jazz actually works. Copying your fav players does seems to work, but I find most technical exercises by Tutors very confusing.

[GuyBoden]

Luckily for us, Christian has a new video on this topic: "The Secret To Swing"

Many thanks, good stuff.