White musicians lagging behind the beat

[guy.shelander]

Here is a bass players view of "laying back" or playing behind the beat. Same thing or something different?

Thanks

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[Robertkoa]

I don't think that's a good example of creatively laying back successfully.

Because the Bassist is NOT landing on the 1 of each measure OR the 1 of every 2nd Measure.

Normally in R&B , Pop , Reggae, Funk you can hit the ONE then do a slightly laid back riff or line or part ...then BAM you jump on that 1 when it comes around.

And I should add there are other downbeats even if playing over bar lines.

Syncing to major downbeats ( not always the '1' at key points is how Classical /Rock / etc....Musicians let everyone know they are 'in time ' or even better create the time feel
Dancers also do this


You can try it on this Groove ( not sure why this tune popped into my head- ):

Hit the 1 then do some slightly laid back lick ...but bash the 1 when it comes around hit a chord on the 1 then a simple part a few notes lagged .....sets the listener up for the big ONE when it comes around ...

Play along and see if you feel it.

Remembering this is mostly Machine quantized stuff- This Track is NOT an example of behind the Beat Playing-

It is something you can Practice behind the Beat playing - as long as you nail the ONE every measure or every second measure.

Miles was talking about some Guitar Players who 'lag' unintentionally.

This Bass Player ( and almost all good ones ) nail the Time extremely well - and I am quite sure he can also at will.

So this Guy is doing this purposely.

And I imagine he could push the beat , lag it and land on the 1 at will .

I merely don't think he did a good example here of what you might actually USE.

You can do a blind test :
Don't [ Do NOT ] tell or reveal the Title or Caption of the 'Behind the Beat ' Title .

Do NOT discuss that 'Topic'

And Play the Video for a 'recording engineer' , or Producer , someone who does Music for TV or Film etc etc.

And they'll ( some of them ) say that it sounds like Computer 'Latency ' uncompensated in his headphones and he is playing ,

To a delayed monitor mix in his headphones causing him to be ' late ' in time compared to the actual track.

He merely sounds ' out of Sync ' to average listeners.

However - IF you never Sync to the One
even in polyrhythms [ as I said - it might be EVERY '1 ' or every second measure '1'
Or if we are talking about polymeter it might be longer than that.

I would add that longer tuplet patterns might Sync to the 3 ( in 4-4) I just played one - can't count it but it lands on every '3 '.

So I guess I would say 1 or some major downbeat but on the odd groupings that land on a downbeat like 3 or even syncopated stuff - you can't miss the 1 for too long or conflict with it ....or people will say you sound 'off time '.

To correct/focus the cloudy long stuff above and add emphasis for clarity.

Music in General You can syncopate , you can play behind the beat , you can play polyrhythms , even polymeters ...

BUT - you must SYNC to Downbeats at some points or people( especially Conductors/ Instructors/ Music Contractors/Producers/audience( instinctively ) etc. will merely think you are 'off time'

Playing with percussionists etc. reveals this even more and as I have said R&B modern Dance Styles etc not necessarily the 1 but downbeats must frequently be synced .
Dancers must SYNC their feet to downbeats or they will be out ...flunk audition...

Oscar Peterson sounds like a percussionist frequently to me ... swings forward but dead on beat...and tighter than Sax Players.

[Shadow of the Sun]

There's a difference between having enough control to do something intentionally and lacking the control and doing it unintentionally.

In the art world, for example, Jackson Pollock is probably a good example. His works seem messy and uncontrolled, but they're actually incredibly precise.

[Robertkoa]

@Shadow of the Sun -well said.

When you listen to George Benson probably the tightest time sense and ability to Play it that way ...(of all Guitarists).



On the Stevie Wonder ballad 'Lately' ( what a Song ...).

GB intentionally lags some of the Melody ..
and so beautifully ( with vibrato too ) - just as you say ....

He also on one version I think playing with his thumb ( same time feel !- ) .

This is what Shadow is talking about ...

And the melodic fills- pure artistry ...

Also - I sometimes feel Jazz Guitarists play behind the Beat a little more than I 'hear ' it but Jazz Guitarists almost NEVER play behind the Beat on R&B and Funk - they usually kill it - but not kill it like Benson or Brecker because they have too much lag time and often trip up .





You HAVE to land on the one sooner or later to let contractor/ studio owner/ producer/ bandleader / audience know and feel you are not late..or off time.

Edit - As Irez 87 mentions later - you don't have to END on the 1 and I should add
emphasize ANY downbeat also works to lock in and show it - but sure - it sounds great to have a little blip on the upbeat - or a big blip.
Thanks for correction.

I should also Add IMO to what I say above to not be as preachy ...

You can hear a lot of what I am saying when you listen to some of Brecker's stuff ...

Where there's a triplet or sextuplet pattern but occasionally a group of 7 it builds rhythmic tension in the line then ...you give the listener the big long note on the ONE eventually - maybe after a few measures but it's not like you're out of Sync during the mayhem tension part...



I don't know about this because I read it somewhere - I am doing it .

Ooh here's Mr John Coltrane playing
Equinox - and the Rhythm Section is damn close to (better ) Hip Hop R&B like 50 years ahead !

!¡What a Groove on the Intro !

Actually all the way thru ..but especially the Intro.

Here Trane sounds like R&B /Church Sax Player ...but a little of that otherworldy vibe
...

Hear the super effective behind the beat Playing too...Trane's time feel is often not as straight ahead as this to my ears ..

Total Badass track like I complain Jazz doesn't have ....oops .

[Irez87]

What Robertkoa is talking about is...well... incredibly important and true.

See, I do agree with you sometimes, Robertkoa

Even if you don't always place a hit (I sound like a beat mobster) on the BIG one, you HAVE to feel the BIG one.

That could be the downbeat for every two measures, or the downbeat that marks every four measures.

I call it phraseology, but I'm sure there's a better name out there.

I originally posting something very similar, but I moved it to the Performance Ear Training thread.

The concept is called MACRO time. You learn to feel the beginning and ending of a phrase of time

ie

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

But you actually hear it as

1...............1.................1 (I tried to get the big ONE's to line up, but my fonts and margins are

always wonky on JGF. Notice how there's no counting between the ONE's. You mark that downbeat and feel the space in between. I only gave an example for feeling every two measures. It looks a little different for 4 measure phrases or 8--I wrote about this early on in the Performance Ear Training thread)

Why is this important? Exactly what RobertKoa said. You can do whatever you want with the time feel. Hell you can even super impose metric modulation and interpret the spaces as 3/4 over 4/4 or 5/4 over 4/4--jazz musicians do this a lot.

However, laying back, pushing forward, using metric modulation, all that is all gonna sound like shite if you can't hear the BIG ONE--the temporal phrase.

Remember, I never said you have to always play the BIG ONE. Charlie Parker's phrases didn't always end on the downbeat. Actually, a lot them them ended on the and of 4, or the and of 1, or the and of 2--so on and so forth--Chris 77 might have a better idea. But you better believe Charlie Parker knew EXACTLY where the BIG ONE was in the phrase.

Dave Frank also talks about this with double time lines. You play a double time line, but you make it end on the BIG ONE. I am currently practicing this, and it helps you shape the dynamics of the double time line as well.

this stuff can be applied to ballads or up up tempo playing (my top is now 260 while still being musical--IF I know the tune well enough)

[pauln]

Deep thoughts:
If you play the note "behind the beat", the common interpretation is that your note comes late after the beat... yet, if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right.

Anyway, I have heard nobody play so far behind the beat as Sonny Rollins, who not only lags behind the beat, he lags behind the beat behind that beat...

[Vladan]

... if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right....

I believe this is important, but I totally do not understand, why would something be written before the beat, if it is played after the beat?

[christianm77]

There are a couple of research papers that are interesting but not conclusive on the matter of lag generally.

All jazz soloists so far examined appear to lag the beat to some extent. Some are more consistent in how they do this than others: Gerry Mulligan is less consistent than Freddie Hubbard.

However tempo and articulation are a determinant here. There hasn’t really been enough research to clinch it.

For myself, I sound most relaxed, swinging and precise when I nail the upbeat but relax on the beat, and that synch usually happens when i am hearing the line clearly in my mind’s ear, and play in a relaxed way. So it’s something intuitive although I think one’s awareness can be heightened.

This is something you can play around with on a DAW.

I’ll attach links to the papers when I have a moment. They are quite interesting.

[Robertkoa]

I like that upbeat reference for creating really funky syncopated rhythm parts , semi fingerpicked - I am able to grok it on single lines ..

But I haven't done it enough on single lines and I tend to go

'Wow this is really cool' - then fall off the bicycle ..lol .and back to downbeats.

It is slightly beyond me in actual playing to just fly around that way - it seems to generate really syncopated single lines too but
it's bass ackwards for me somewhat ( my limitation) but really cool with wide interval leaps with high notes on the upbeats . ..

When finger or pick and fingers it does the same thing for me - not speaking of single lines but wanna be piano player rhythm stuff -it's easier on rhythm parts .

I hear Charlie Parker where he sounds like he does that ( do you hear it that way ?).

Easier for me to play like 60 - 80% of Brecker[ just Rhythms NOT substitutions and melodic content - that's 9.4 % maybe] than Parker- seems like I can muscle my way thru Brecker but CP is too graceful to do that - he's not a Gutbucket R&B Church type Player ...Coltrane either...
sounds like they both avoided that - obviously easy for them if they wanted to..


There's a minor blues by Trane - cool behind the beat thing too where he is more
R&B /Church ....but he is not like Brecker/ Benson/ David Sanborn time feel ( to me ) most of the time - here sounds more like Brecker ( obviously other way around )- just how I hear it ...not 'correct' or anything .....

Except Trane here :as in my edited earlier post...

Edit: [Per Irez87- thanks ] My references to the 1 or the 'big 1 ' every few measures or 'big Downbeat anywhere' that I land on , nail target rhythmically ( like most people) doesn't mean the phrase has to end on a 4 or a 1 just some big downbeat somewhere ...the beboppers often seem to put a little 'and' blip after the ' big downbeat ' I just noticed [ not that I am a model for time - lol] I often have a longer note with vibrato at the end of a long phrase and sometimes do a blip on an upbeat .

Where I really jump on the 1 or every other 1 is on my Pick and Fingers Rhythm parts
which sound quite Clavinet or Piano- like .

Some ' Historical References ' say the name BeBop came from the sound of Gillespie and Parker ending phrases often on the Upbeat ( like Irez87 says later in the thread ) with a 5th or diminished 5th linear interval that makes the sound "be bop ".



Hence the name .....?


Below - cool to hear Hubbard in contrast to the Sax Player - Soul Jazz....nice groove .
Sax Player is tighter to the beat ( more forward in time literally ) , generally .

These Guys are late by choice -they do what they want ...then the ensemble lines are all tight again .

Even the Drummer lays out during Hubbard's solo just keeping time mostly on the ride cymbal ...so Hubbard can do his thing time wise ( I assume ).

I think we as Guitarists can stretch the time somewhat ...lag intentionally especially on tracks with less percussion and using more legato non attack and utilize behind the beat stuff as a ' color' ...

But I doubt if that's what Miles meant - right ..? He must have been annoyed by someone just Playing late ...for no reason or purpose ..but I think this discussion is interesting on the general time feel thing.

[christianm77]

Here's a shot of the analysis of Freddie Hubbard from this paper https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/P...qDZVSIwBD/full

(The data analysis stuff is pretty mathsy, but if you go past that it gets a lot more accessible.)



5.2.2. Down under

In Figure 10, we show a solo section from ‘Down Under,’ recorded by Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers in 1961, with trumpet player Freddie Hubbard performing together with drummer and bandleader Art Blakey. At an average tempo of 146 BPM, the RC swing ratio exhibits a slightly wavy variation around

. This gives an example of the archetype of drummers playing high swing ratios at low tempi as discussed in Section 5.1. In contrast, Hubbard stays at the other end of the swing-ratio range at around

in the zoomed-in section. Furthermore, one can clearly see that Hubbard plays his onbeat onsets in a laid-back fashion behind the beat grid. His offbeats, however, synchronize very well to Blakey’s offbeats most of the time as hypothesized by Friberg and Sundström (2002Friberg, A. , & Sundström, A. (2002). Swing ratios and ensemble timing in jazz performance: Evidence for a common rhythmic pattern. Music Perception , 19 , 333–349.[Crossref], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]).

----------

The lag is really noticeable here, and is actually looks to be a fair way behind the offbeat a few times.

This is the track:

[Jazzstdnt]

@Shadow of the Sun -well said.

When you listen to George Benson probably the tightest time sense and ability to Play it that way ...(of all Guitarists).



On the Stevie Wonder ballad 'Lately' ( what a Song ...).

GB intentionally lags some of the Melody ..
and so beautifully ( with vibrato too ) - just as you say ....

He also on one version I think playing with his thumb ( same time feel !- ) .

This is what Shadow is talking about ...

And the melodic fills- pure artistry ...

Also - I sometimes feel Jazz Guitarists play behind the Beat a little more than I 'hear ' it but Jazz Guitarists almost NEVER play behind the Beat on R&B and Funk - they usually kill it - but not kill it like Benson or Brecker because they have too much lag time and often trip up .





You HAVE to land on the one sooner or later to let contractor/ studio owner/ producer/ bandleader / audience know and feel you are not late..or off time.

You can hear a lot of what I am saying when you listen to some of Brecker's stuff ...

Where there's a triplet or sextuplet pattern but occasionally a group of 7 it builds rhythmic tension in the line then ...you give the listener the big long note on the ONE eventually - maybe after a few measures but it's not like you're out of Sync during the mayhem tension part...



I don't know about this because I read it somewhere - I am doing it .

Ooh here's Mr John Coltrane playing
Equinox - and the Rhythm Section is damn close to (better ) Hip Hop R&B like 50 years ahead !

!¡What a Groove on the Intro !

Actually all the way thru ..but especially the Intro.

Here Trane sounds like R&B /Church Sax Player ...but a little of that otherworldy vibe
...

Hear the super effective behind the beat Playing too...Trane's time feel is often not as straight ahead as this to my ears ..

Total Badass track like I complain Jazz doesn't have ....oops .

Yeah man. I never get tired of that McCoy Tyner piano solo on Equinox. It is pure, post-bop sublimity (or is it sublimeness?)

[Irez87]

I think, if you want to play this way, just focus in on what you are listening for in the player.

Listen to the same solo 5x a day and sing it when you aren't listening to it. Focus on the rhythms, yes--but also focus on the rests, the space, the silence (that will contribute to time feel as well, even though you aren't necessarily focusing on the placement of the upbeat eighth note)

I think this is called sonic imprinting.

And be aware of the BIG BEATS, as Robertkoa aforementioned.

That mathematical analysis of Freddie is really cool--but I dunno if it would help me cop his feel.

[christianm77]

That mathematical analysis of Freddie is really cool--but I dunno if it would help me cop his feel.

Yeah I'm in two minds about it myself, obviously generations of jazz musicians learned to play without knowing any of this. In fact the language people are using here regarding pushing or lagging the beat etc is much most subjective and may not have any grounding in actual scientific measurement.

However - I've known about this aspect of jazz timing for a while, and when you become aware of it, it's actually quite possible to hear it.

Furthermore, this is an exercise that was actually suggested to me by a teacher - practice with the metronome on the 'and' of 1 and 3. So - I think some jazz musicians are aware of the structural importance of upbeat synch.

Lastly... As a teacher and learner I find it useful to make a link between what's going on externally and what's going on internally.

So - if I set up my DAW with an upbeat tick on one track like this, and have a look at where my onsets are:



(I've chosen a good bit lol)

I can see at a glance where EXACTLY I am placing my notes relative to the beat. Now - this may in practice be too much of a quantised idea, obviously Freddie's beat placement has a lot of humanity in it... But - try it yourself...

1) It's useful to be able to develop exact fine control over where you are putting things.... And it is in my experience controllable.

2) It's actually very intuitive. The more 'zen' you are, the better your placement is. Metronome practice is similar in this. I find best results through Hal Galper's process - play a line, audiate it very strongly, play it again casually. (At 7:09)

3) On playback, the playing that is strongly synchronised to the upbeat seems to swing and 'pop' the most. This may be selection bias of course... I also find there's a bit of leeway - not everything has to be super perfect (look at the Freddie example) but if it's ahead on the upbeat, that feels less good than being a little behind it. To me.

[Irez87]

Barry Greene did a lesson on this, with DAW exactly like you--Mr. Chris 77, believe it or not.

I've used DAW and my specialized "one click per two measures" metronome to study the consistency of my own beat placement

Here's a clip of the course:

Interesting lesson, I have it.

I haven't tried placing the metronome on and of 1 and 3 for a while--I have to go back to that--getting away from 2 and 4 and placing the click on every quarter is so important to internalizing your own sense of time.

I think we should consider where we place the beat, and what musicians do what--instead of making it a matter of skin color. Fact of the matter is, Jazz is African American--it's part of that history (as is Blues, R&B, and yes, Rock and Roll). That doesn't mean we should look at skin color when we are considering beat placement. It's been said before, but the way you play depends on what you listen to--and what you were brought up listening to--it's psychosomatic (and there's nothing wrong with that).

That said, I'd love to fool everyone by transcribing the flow of Busta Rhymes or Talib Kweli and tricking everyone into thinking those were classic jazz licks. You wanna hear "laying back"?

Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)
Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)

--Snoop Dog

[christianm77]

Barry Greene did a lesson on this, with DAW exactly like you--Mr. Chris 77, believe it or not.

I've used DAW and my specialized "one click per two measures" metronome to study the consistency of my own beat placement

Here's a clip of the course:

Interesting lesson, I have it.

Great. It's great to know that some notable players/educators are thinking along the same lines.

Again - I've never taught anyone using the DAW thing. It's purely something I'm playing around with for my own information. I think the main thing is to sensitise the players to the position of the upbeat and deprogram them from thinking they have to introduce an inequality into their playing ('trying to swing'). This always gets good results IME, and I think it's pretty old school advice. Charles McPherson for instance...

I haven't tried placing the metronome on and of 1 and 3 for a while--I have to go back to that--getting away from 2 and 4 and placing the click on every quarter is so important to internalizing your own sense of time.

TBH I think the problematic thing with the onbeat click is that you aren't actually meant to synch with it like you would in straight 8s music. The thing is everyone does 'the practice until you can't hear the click' thing. It's quite good to be able to show a graphic to people as to why this is not a good idea for this type of feel.

This is of course why ****ing everyone shreds double time on medium tempo tunes. :-)

I think we should consider where we place the beat, and what musicians do what--instead of making it a matter of skin color. Fact of the matter is, Jazz is African American--it's part of that history (as is Blues, R&B, and yes, Rock and Roll). That doesn't mean we should look at skin color when we are considering beat placement. It's been said before, but the way you play depends on what you listen to--and what you were brought up listening to--it's psychosomatic (and there's nothing wrong with that).

That said, I'd love to fool everyone by transcribing the flow of Busta Rhymes or Talib Kweli and tricking everyone into thinking those were classic jazz licks. You wanna hear "laying back"?

Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)
Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)

--Snoop Dog

Yeah it's the same thing... Just we use notes instead of words.

[Jonah]

it's psychosomatic .

in the old days they used to call it - a Soul

[Robertkoa]

That's a very good video a lot of truth in it.

I see a lot of naievetè where people speak of Benson Picking to sound like Benson and Wes Technique etc....

IF the Goddess of Guitar Technique [ Zephyr ] granted you GBs Technique or Wes's Technique you would get the ABILITY ...

But NOT the time feel ...

And NOT the note choices ...

Those you would still need to work out for yourself .

And a big part of BOTH of those is a strong aural/ mental image FIRST ...
then practicing to reinforce that image and make it 'real ' including it's placement in time .

Very good Video -

Barry Greene- if I am going to demonstrate time feels - I am going to have a track / drum beat / metronome consistent thru the examples.

[wintermoon]

Deep thoughts:
If you play the note "behind the beat", the common interpretation is that your note comes late after the beat... yet, if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right.

Anyway, I have heard nobody play so far behind the beat as Sonny Rollins, who not only lags behind the beat, he lags behind the beat behind that beat...

hah!
ok, just saw this thread for the 1st time [shame on me] but I had to laugh at the title, and then this post by pauln.
but ain't it the truth. sometimes the tune is over and Sonny catches up at the end... or is it the other way around? hmm….guess I need to start on page 1 to see what it's all about.

[JCat]

I still haven't figured out what this thread is all about.

-When was there ever a Jazz soloist that didn't lag behind the beat as a rule of thumb, including Miles Davis himself. Lol.

Members of the rhythm section have different roles, sometimes a guy may drive and another hold back. It depends on the song, the beat, the tempo and the situation.

Tempo variation is a key element in music that moves ("con moto"). One has to differentiate intentional vs unintentional tempo variation, poor timing vs soulful phrasing etc. Is the guy late to the beat because he can't read ahead fast enough, or can't spit it out on time, or is he holding back a galloping band?

Swing tempo, like in punctuated eights or triplets, come in different degrees, i.e the sixteenth note that follows a punctuated eight are more or less delayed, or is rather interpreted as an eights triplet after a forth triplet. This degree of swing is negotiated during a live session.

Miles Davis was a Jazz musician remembered for his music legacy. There was no crap coming out of his trumpet.

-Quiet, Quiet, he's going to say something........

-"White guys are lagging behind the beat"

-Now, what are we supposed to do?

[Robertkoa]

It's expanded to be

'Time Feel - how to use it and abuse it but never lose it.'

Or something like that ...

Hey Miles ( wherever you are ) - how come your time feel isn't/wasn't as tight as McCoy Tyner ? lol.

Not even close. ( me neither )

I think Irez 87 made some really good corrections to my unnecessarily long Posts. ( big surprise , too long again ).

When doing tuplets and odd note groupings IMO there is more responsibility to nail a Downbeat ,or Downbeats not necessarily the 1 -

AND not necessarily end the phrase on a downbeat .

Just that accenting and syncing to the Downbeats , not every Downbeat possibly not every Bar but often -

because even though referencing Upbeats [ love it for syncopated Rhythm Parts , and 'wilder 'lines with wide interval skips higher notes on upbeats ] is a useful tool ...

Nailing ( accenting ) Downbeats ( often ) let's everybody know you are 'in time ' even non Musician listeners feel it usually .

Especially ( IMO ) after fast stuff , tuplets, odd note groupings etc accenting Downbeats both dynamically and sometimes with longer note values keeps it all uncluttered and clear ...

In R&B Rhythm Parts - we usually nail the one ...and it's possible to s-t-r-e-c-h the rest of the Bar or over 2 Bars or create that effect so the 'Big One' is jarring almost abrupt when it comes around again .

But that's a specialized thing .

[christianm77]

Time feel - useless term really. Conflates two separate things that can almost be in opposition to each other sometimes.

Talking about lag. Perception of it and the empirical reality...

[JCat]

In R&B Rhythm Parts - we usually nail the one ...and it's possible to s-t-r-e-c-h the rest of the Bar or over 2 Bars or create that effect so the 'Big One' is jarring almost abrupt when it comes around again .

But that's a specialized thing .

I'm a fan of Bootsy Collins, he would subscribe to everything you said about the "big One". (He would probably also claim he's the inventor of the concept. He likes to think so.) Unlike Miles, he's a living legend, but also unlike Miles he's not a Jazz musician. Funk is close to Soul music that is kind of different from Jazz... the way I feel it....Anyway, Bootsy is the grandmaster of groove.

[Robertkoa]

There are a couple of research papers that are interesting but not conclusive on the matter of lag generally.

All jazz soloists so far examined appear to lag the beat to some extent. Some are more consistent in how they do this than others: Gerry Mulligan is less consistent than Freddie Hubbard.

However tempo and articulation are a determinant here. There hasn’t really been enough research to clinch it.

For myself, I sound most relaxed, swinging and precise when I nail the upbeat but relax on the beat, and that synch usually happens when i am hearing the line clearly in my mind’s ear, and play in a relaxed way. So it’s something intuitive although I think one’s awareness can be heightened.

This is something you can play around with on a DAW.

I’ll attach links to the papers when I have a moment. They are quite interesting.

Yeah. Soloists , Vocalists can be late and sound really good.

But when /if you are part of the Harmonic Rhythm there is a point where it just sounds ' off time ' on chords ...
Like playing the Piano Part on Take Five on Guitar with a Rhythm Section- depending on Tempo and Voicings ( larger Voicings = less wiggle room )

Then there is less wiggle room than for a Solo - it reaches a point where it's just 'off time ' not subjective any more ...obvious I suppose .

I think it's interesting to hear and be aware of what the great soloists do or did...

I am becoming more aware of McCoy Tyner as a great time keeper Rhythmatist / harmonic /stylistic innovator - if 10 % rubs off - great even 5 %
his Rhythm stuff is was amazing .

Empirical? I took 2 empiricals this morning and don't feel anything .....lol.

That's cool the way you relaxed yourself into good time -I doubt if it was 'bad' before ...

As I said I hear Parker hitting upbeats and maybe that's why he has that effortless feel to his swing and Playing in general ?

Or just that it was actually easy for him to Play that way......?

[christianm77]

Yeah. Soloists , Vocalists can be late and sound really good.

But when /if you are part of the Harmonic Rhythm there is a point where it just sounds ' off time ' on chords ...
Like playing the Piano Part on Take Five on Guitar with a Rhythm Section- depending on Tempo and Voicings ( larger Voicings = less wiggle room )

Then there is less wiggle room than for a Solo - it reaches a point where it's just 'off time ' not subjective any more ...obvious I suppose .

I think there's a distinction to be made which I think you'll agree with.

There's of course more room for a soloist to be a bit ... flaccid... rhythmically on a good rhythm section... And of course a good rhythm section will help a soloist find the pocket...

But no, there's no wiggle room when we are talking about people who can actually play... It's just as specific what is expected of them - a real jazz soloist has to not only find the pocket but define and exist in it 24/7. You can't be just 'late'. You can vary beat placement etc, but certain things have to be right.

I can't think of a better demonstration of this than Paul Chambers switching from playing the melody to So What to walking - from laid back soloist swing to pushed bass player swing...

And then there's the area of polyrhythm... Billie etc... Wes on Willow Weep locking into the Bembe...

Good soloists project time/feel through their playing. Bad soloists lean on the rhythm section... I mean that's obvious, right?

(From the player's point of view... IME *trying* to project time/feel is always a mistake ... important to separate causes from effects....)

I think it's interesting to hear and be aware of what the great soloists do or did...

I am becoming more aware of McCoy Tyner as a great time keeper Rhythmatist / harmonic /stylistic innovator - if 10 % rubs off - great even 5 %
his Rhythm stuff is was amazing .

Empirical? I took 2 empiricals this morning and don't feel anything .....lol.

That's cool the way you relaxed yourself into good time -I doubt if it was 'bad' before ...

As I said I hear Parker hitting upbeats and maybe that's why he has that effortless feel to his swing and Playing in general ?

Or just that it was actually easy for him to Play that way......?

Sure... He grew up in Kansas City in the 30s.

[Robertkoa]

@Guitar Buddy - yes ! I was mostly speaking of Tyner's rolling thunder pulsing in the Rhythm Sections -his soloing is obvious but I would love to get a little of Tyner's vibe in my semi fingerpicked Rhythms.

@Christian - I will check those guys out in the specific tunes - then re-read your Post here .

That little break in 'Road Song' by Wes -now that's some Harmonic Rhythm..will check that out and Chambers ..