Foot tap on 1 and 3 or 2 and 4?

**mike288** · 10-10-2015, 08:35 PM

When I went to college I was always told to feel bebop in half time, and tap my foot on the 2 and 4. Recently I saw this video of Barry Harris telling students to tap on the 1 and 3. This video has sparked controversy amongst my friends, who also were told to tap on the 2 and 4. What is everyone's opinion on the following video? Specifically, does anyone know of any videos were famous musicians can be seen tapping their feet in half time?

Fast forward to 3:00

**Irez87** · 10-10-2015, 09:42 PM

I've gotten into many arguments on this. How would you notate this:

I've been on a historical bent, discovering the music of my mother's Sephardi lineage.

What I've learned is... don't freaking count. Feel the pulse. Counting is superimposing "bullshit labels" onto a musical construct more complex than tonality and harmony combine.

See, rhythm occurs a priori... I mean way before there were humans on the earth to mess up musical conception, there was rhythm. Crickets, frogs, birds, all speak in unspecified pitches that follow rhythmic rules. The Earth follows a rhythmic rule around the Sun. The Moon follows a rhythmic rule around the Earth. Cycles. Time. A force of nature that cannot be tamed or stopped. Ever moving. These are not created by human beings. Rhythm is nature. However, many human beings disrespect rhythm because they disrespect or try to ignore nature. Guess what? Rhythm and nature always win.

Once you realize this, then you will understand music...

AND... start the comment wars

Whatevs

**Irez87** · 10-11-2015, 02:28 AM

Sorry if that sounded standoffish, but I do believe it. To translate my hippie stuff, look for where the cycle repeats and it will help you find the larger pulse. Usually, this is demarcated by the drums... or the cadence of the melody. These cycles often happen every 2 measures, 4 measures, and 8 measures. Go to the performance ear training blog I started under bandstand and look for rhythmic cadence. I give audio examples as well. But, I stress, don't count, like 1-2-3-4 or -2-4. Just feel the pulse of the cycle.

**grahambop** · 10-11-2015, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by mike288

When I went to college I was always told to feel bebop in half time, and tap my foot on the 2 and 4. Recently I saw this video of Barry Harris telling students to tap on the 1 and 3. This video has sparked controversy amongst my friends, who also were told to tap on the 2 and 4. What is everyone's opinion on the following video? Specifically, does anyone know of any videos were famous musicians can be seen tapping their feet in half time?

Wayne Krantz says don't tap your foot at all, it will just be another appendage which risks being out of time with the actual beat. Emily Remler said use 1 and 3 for Latin/bossa, use 2 and 4 for swing.

Who knows? Try everything and see what works!

**Irez87** · 10-11-2015, 08:23 AM

Exactly Graham. My post comes from the frustration of being told over and over tap on 2 and 4. That was better than counting 1 2 3 4. But, for me, that never worked within the grand scheme of the music and improvising over the music. Of course, I could do that. However, I would always be lost in the song form.

One size doesn't fit all, in music. One size doesn't fit all, in life. For instance, I'm short, 5'6. So, literally, one size (clothing) doesn't fit all

**henryrobinett** · 10-11-2015, 08:29 AM

Sorry for sounding mean. I was joking really. But I agree with graham and irez. I basically don't tap or I'm unaware if I do. 2 and 4 is cool. 1 and 3 is cool. 1234 is cool, unless you're in 7.

. 2&4 makes me feel it differently.

I wish I had time like Krantz. He's the guy. I'd listen to him.

**henryrobinett** · 10-11-2015, 08:32 AM

But what I really wanted to say is sometimes guitarists worry about the darnedest things.

**Irez87** · 10-11-2015, 08:50 AM

Henry,

What do you think of Adam Rogers playing with Chris Potter instead of Wayne Krantz? I bought that underground album thinking I was gonna hear Rogers. I was pleasantly surprised

**mr. beaumont** · 10-11-2015, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

But what I really wanted to say is sometimes guitarists worry about the darnedest things.

Agreed.

Try both. Does your playing sound/feel different? If it does, remember that, and tap that way when you want that feel.

I do like 1 and 3 in fast tunes, or just 1 even. calms me down a bit.

**henryrobinett** · 10-11-2015, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Henry,

What do you think of Adam Rogers playing with Chris Potter instead of Wayne Krantz? I bought that underground album thinking I was gonna hear Rogers. I was pleasantly surprised

I love them both. I'm s huge fan of both.

**Irez87** · 10-11-2015, 11:33 AM

Guys, listen to my latest Pod Cast on the performance ear training journal. Mr. Beaumont, I gave you a shout out when I played some Tribe on the posting.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-11-2015, 11:36 AM

Right on!

**wizard3739** · 10-11-2015, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Wayne Krantz says don't tap your foot at all, it will just be another appendage which risks being out of time with the actual beat. Emily Remler said use 1 and 3 for Latin/bossa, use 2 and 4 for swing.

Who knows? Try everything and see what works!

That works for me and most of the musicians I play with.

wiz

**Irez87** · 10-11-2015, 12:18 PM

my latest pod cast on the ear training thread addresses this thoroughly. I give examples of classical, blues, bluegrass, hip hop, and reggae/ska

Have a listen

**pamosmusic** · 10-11-2015, 02:31 PM

They're sort of two different things, no? To me one and three feels like cut time. Two and four feels like you're in four but emphasizing those beats.

my guess ... Emily Remler is informing us that the emphasis leans on the two and four for swing music. Bebop guy is probably telling you to feel the music in bigger chunks so as not to feel frantic at up tempos. Let the music bounce a bit. Either way ... They're learning tools. Not a substitute for being able to feel the music in bigger subdivisions or being able to feel swing time.

**marvinvv** · 10-11-2015, 04:20 PM

Consciously started tapping on 1 & 3 a couple days ago.

Within a very short time it made me play slightly differently time wise, it seemed to make the tempo more manageable/relaxed, Im happy with the short sharp improvement so far. I saw Hal YTube Galper's Piano Lesson - Minimizing Emotion showing his student demonstrating this, the results are clear. The explanation also makes sense.

Will check Barry H vid out, Barry always makes great musical sense.

Also minimizing of body movements. Mmmm Keith J has no problems.

**Stevebol** · 10-13-2015, 05:24 PM

Just give me the 1.

**christianm77** · 10-13-2015, 06:00 PM

For what it's worth I tap my foot on all 4, or 1 and 3 under the influence of Hal Galper and Barry Harris... Faster tempos I practice as half time...

Interestingly, apparently dancers used to cut time too (this is what BH says, for example) - so a tune at 240 would be at 120 on 1 and 3. Modern swing dancers hate this idea so you end up playing 3 hours of 120 -180 - but that's another story haha...

Quite a few guys tap their foot on 2 and 4 without apparent detriment to their playing. I'm sure Barry would bust their asses about it though haha.

EDIT: Mike Longo has an interesting point about foot tapping happening when the groove is there, not something that helps the groove happen...

Lee Konitz mentions the idea of really synchronising your playing to your foot so that your time is manifested physically at all times. He says many players - even those who are very rhythmic don't coordinate their playing with their foot tapping, so their foot is tapping slightly different beat to their playing... I really like practicing this.

Wayne Krantz is a giant of contemporary guitar playing, but I doubt he is much use at a dance off.

**Irez87** · 10-13-2015, 06:04 PM

oka, here ya go, Steve:

1:47 TO THE BRIDGE

And if ya feel really lost, ya might need to call...

**christianm77** · 10-13-2015, 06:13 PM

And one more thing - now I'm thinking, hmmm can I tap my foot in 3 and play all the same stuff as I would normally - so tapping my foot as a minim triplet and playing normal jazz '4/4' time. A rhythmic independence exercise right? This is where drummers live.

Might be interesting... I think that relates to the African thing a bit. I got the idea from practicing the Mike Longo exercises 3 and 4 (DVD 2), but also Gunther Schuller's book Early Jazz where he talks about the relationships between early jazz and West African music.

**Stevebol** · 10-13-2015, 07:18 PM

If in doubt, loop.

**Lazz** · 10-14-2015, 01:03 PM

Sit in front of a big band and watch their foot-tapping dances.
Notice that everyone hits their own personal preferred accents in different places.
I think of it as dancing - proper dancing - coming from a personal relationship with the rhythm.

**Eagle2x** · 10-15-2015, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Agreed.

Try both. Does your playing sound/feel different? If it does, remember that, and tap that way when you want that feel.

I do like 1 and 3 in fast tunes, or just 1 even. calms me down a bit.

I agree. I used to tap on 2 and 4, but my teacher Howard Alden encouraged me to tap on 1 and 3 (can accent the 2 and 4 in playing though) so I do not lose focus of the changes.