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Hi guys I have been trying to work on my time and rhythm.
Generally my strategy has been as follows :
1) Learn solos of masters and play along with them to absorb their sense of time and rhythm.
2) Record myself, see where I didn't nail the time and try again.
3) Use a metronome to practice.
I do 1 and 3 anyway(I could be more religious with 3), and I started 2 a month or so ago. Maybe its a slow process thing but I haven't made much progress. I'm of course going to keep doing the above, but does anyone have any tips for practicing time and rhythm?
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02-21-2015 07:13 PM
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It's something I'm really focusing on now. most important for me is using a metronome. practicing rhythm isn't just restricted to the instrument. I clap out rhythms. I practice subdivisions using indian words which help get the subdivision. I also practice singing rhythmic phrases as well. I think it's something you really have to feel.
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Originally Posted by pushkar000
Are you learing the sing the solos, that's the old school way. Memorize a solo so you can sing it. Then transcribe from your singing. Get the phasing and develops the ear.
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Anything will help... But rhythm and time are different from feel and phrasing.
your not going to have good feel with out having good time, at least when performing with other musicians.
time is usually developed from learning and understanding the beat and subdivisions of the beat.
get a copy of Louis Bellson's Modern Reading , use it every day for six months.... You won't be asking about time or rhythm.... You'll be giving examples.
transcribing is not to help your time...
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All of this. Great post. Originally Posted by Reg
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I've been on the quest for better time myself. After doing some recording and learning the hard way how wobbly my time is, I've refocused on time rhythm and groove. Unfortunately I'm also more self conscious now about my playing now.
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Thanks a lot guys. I think I'll take out a little time every day and actively work on getting my rhythm and time together.
I don't do any of these things - I will look into it. Originally Posted by nick1994
I haven't - I just learn the thing straight. I will adopt this method now. Originally Posted by docbop
Thanks a lot Reg - I'll try to get my hands on it in the near future. Originally Posted by Reg
Yeah I mean I basically transcribe because it sounds great so one wants to play along with the record, but I guess one of the benefits would be that I absorb (among other things) the time and rhythm of the masters.
This is exactly my position. But I think being self-conscious partly means you're aware of some kind of deficiency, which eventually leads to improvement. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
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Yeah, transcribing is going to be hard to make into a rhythmic exercise. You'll learn a lot about phrasing and feel and all that, but exclusively about rhythm, it's something you work on without your instrument for a while. You can practice overlapping meters (2 over 3 is an easy one), or groupings of note values (like, groupings of 2 triplet 8th notes), and displace these. But even going back to the transcribing thing, you can take rhythmic patterns in solos you listen to and try transforming them into different rhythmic contexts. A really cool exercise is to take 8 bars of a transcription (this works really well with drum solos) and turn it into triplets. Normally when you loop the 8 bar section, you'd have the restart of the loop on the downbeat of every 8 bars, but in order to get that same restart on a downbeat, you'll have to repeat the section 3 times, but it will be less than 8 bars. It'll give you some really interesting rhythmic phrases.
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1) Great Originally Posted by pushkar000
2) Great (try playing with along with yourself - that's interesting)
3) How do you use the metronome? It matters.
One theme that seems to come up repeatedly from quite a few different sources is the importance of feeling the different subdivisions.
Of course, we have 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, but significantly for jazz we have the triplets.
Swing is often understood as a triplet 1/8 feel, but in fact triplet 1/4s and 1/2s are extremely important. Try counting 1/4 triplets against 1/4 and swung 1/8 lines, for starters. (I'm working on this ATM.)
Also try playing some drums if you can.
Bellson is a stock text, I find reading helps lock things down, but it's not how everyone learned.Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 08:31 PM.
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I learned a lot by transcribing solos and just scatting the rhythms, no pitches. Originally Posted by jtizzle
Try it with Louis, Prez and Trane say, and then you start to learn something, right?
Rhythmic vocabulary, history. Rhythm is not separate from 'language' - it's the most significant part. Anything else is just pitch selection, and we have rules for that if you need them :-)
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Thanks for the tips. I need to work on both my rhythm(triplets and syncopation and things) and my time feel(rushing, dragging, behind/on/ahead of the beat) so yeah the time feel aspect at least I think works out well in terms of transcribing. Of course separately as well I need to work on pure rhythm exercises. That's a great exercise you've given, kind of killing two birds with one stone. Originally Posted by jtizzle
When working on tunes, I put the metronome on 2 and 4. Originally Posted by christianm77
When working on anything else, I put it on every beat.
Thanks for the ideas - I tried counting 1/4 triplets right now...didn't get it down.
I'll be getting the Bellson soon but not really in the near future. Will work on whatever I can till then. You guys have given me more than enough stuff to keep me going for a while. Thanks a lot!
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If you find something easy then you know it. Concentrate on the stuff that is really challenging, but just about doable. short bursts or you will burn out. Originally Posted by pushkar000
2 and 4 is a start. But be wary of over accenting 2 and 4. Don't neglect 1 and 3.
Suggestions for making your metronome work more challenging:
Slow tempos - slow improv, say at 60-80bpm in 1/8s is great
Slow metronome - halve the metronome. So you start at 60 with a click on 2 and 4, say
Go 30 on 4 only
15 with 4 every other bar
etc
My phone app 'tempo' goes this slow.
Off beat metronome - I was taught click on off beat of 1 and 3 - straight. Play a bebop head slowly with this click. That'll teach you something.
Try it swung as well.
Any variations you can think of.
For me, the metronome is a tool of diagnosis, not cure. If I have trouble with these exercises it is often because I am not perceiving the rhythms within a structure of subdivisions, if that makes sense. If I then work on that, my metronome accuracy usually improves.
Check out Lester Youngs solo on Lady be Good - check out the interplay between swung and straight 1/8s.Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 09:11 PM.
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I happen to have transcribed that very solo(most of it) a while ago. I must admit I did not pay any attention to the rhythm. I should go and revisit it. Also finish the entire solo this time. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Found this short video from Chick Corea on the subject.
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Re: listening to yourself - Sco said he found listening to himself unhelpful IRC. I think you can go a bit far in this direction. I got a bit neurotic with it - but - the odd bit of recording can certainly reveal things that need attention... Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
Amazing advice in general, of course, especially the apprenticeship thing +1000% on this....
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Bill Leavitt's Melodic Rhythms is a great book on breaking down the rhythms into smaller
patterns so that you learn to recognize them immediately.
So first it's just the rhythm pattern on a single pitch....and written in two formats...one under the other
so that you can see how they differ....the difference is solely on the duration of "attacks" made.
Drum books good as they are....I've done and continue to do Bellson.....drum books often don't
differentiate between a note that's played short [staccato] or long [full duration]
Bill's book is a perfect little gem for guitarists.....
You start with 7 attacks [picked notes] in a 4/4 bar and then successively through 6, 5, 4, etc.
Basically all the permutations.....
Then he writes a 32 or some other regular type form melody......using only the rhythms that you've just learned.
Does the same thing in 3/4 bar time.
So you end up being able to see at a glance and better yet "feel" the groupings of 2 [if you get used to seeing the
front half or back half of the bar] and groupings of 3.
In effect you're now ready to go into odd meters as well if you wish.
The chord symbols given are very specific ....not generic like in many fake books....Bill's expertly arranged them
so that if you use primarily drop 2 voicings you're getting a lesson in voice leading as well.
OK........Yep......I like this book a lot.
It got me in a very short time ready to take on big band/symphony-pops/recording work.....
Check it out.
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I've been doing a lot of this stuff the last year or so and it makes a big difference in time and feel. The eighth note triplet is the least common denominator in a lot of really basic jazz. Working eighth note and quarter note triplets (on and off the beat) over ballads until you can really hear them/play them in any context/combination reaps huge benefits in faster tunes later. Translated to faster tempos, these syncopations are perceived more as "feels" - on, before, or after the beat. Really gives a rhythmic push... Originally Posted by jtizzle
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I didn't want to push Berklees material to much, but I dig graduate from there in mid 70's Moonrays suggestion of Bills melodic rhythms is great... I read through that a million times while young.
There are very physical reasons why many musicians don't have natural time and feel. Generally from not really understanding subdivisions , of which triplets are. Most try and absorb feels, make them become or feel natural etc.. but what sometimes happens is... they force a rhythmic figure to become something it isn't, they somewhat build incorrect foundations and develop from there, one of the problems of trial and error approach. You make a rhythmic figure fit.
And then when you actually perform that feel, when you create relationship and develop from that feel, it breaks down... you loose the feel... especially when tempos pick up, or with more complicated melodic and harmonic material is being used.
The throw everything together and call it music 101 and go from there, usually only works for those who take the time to separate the details by themselves.
You need to be able to see, understand and feel rhythmic figures. After you get the figures, by going through one of the, as Christian said stock Bellson or something at that level. You then can begin developing feels... using accents and being able to organize how and where you move the attack around within accent patterns, to create grooves, feels and make them lock.
Most never really go through this process, and it shows. You end up with a few somewhat standard approaches to playing. Which is cool, nothing wrong. But if you want to really be able to rhythmically perform... it takes more.
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Questions for Reg and anyone else.
First, were you at Berklee back on February 27, 1973? Even if you were there, you might have been too young, but that night George Benson and his guest, Earl Klugh, played at The Jazz Workshop on Boylston St. in Boston. I had a virtual front row seat at a table in the intimate club about four or five feet away from George, who was fabulous that night. I didn't know it at the time, but the performance was recorded and you can google it to link to recordings of some of tunes that night. Absolutely the highlight overall of my concert experiences.
Second, do you prefer playing to a click track or to a live percussionist and drummer? With home solo home recording, most of the time it is to a click track for me, though I prefer the breathing and nuances of time with a live drummer. I'm experimenting with recording without regard to the click, but it always feels disconcerting to see the measures out of sync with the tempo.
Jay
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Re: Berklee, I use the Leavitt reading books. But you could take it or... leave it. Boom ching. Sorry.
I think they are good books. I'm using them to address my reading atm.
I remember trying to work through the Modern Guitar Method with a student once and while I could see its value I found it a bit heavy, didn't really engage the student in the 'hey! let's play a song you know' kind of way.
Extremely logical and well thought out though, I can see that it could be used as the basis of a far reaching curriculum if it was properly understood and assimilated by the teacher and used alongside other materials, or in order to systematise a young player's approach.
Didn't you say you studied with Leavitt, Reg?
Anyway re: subdivisions, correctly understanding rhythmic structure and 3 over 2 - I'm glad to see there's some pretty recurrent recommendations here, so I'm not barking up the wrong tree.
The best way to develop time is of course, to play with great drummers. A click can never substitute for that.
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Perhaps you have advanced to the point where you are no longer able to learn from the kinds of drummers around you (wherever that is). If so, you need to move somewhere where you can continue your education. I suppose New York, ultimately. Originally Posted by Richb
If you haven't taken steps to further your learning in this way, you can't really comment.
In any case, good drummers teach me things all the time. I love chatting to drummers too, I like the way they view music.
BTW the click is not the gold standard for time feel. Plenty of great jazz records change tempo.Last edited by christianm77; 03-04-2015 at 08:10 PM.
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Christian......you don't have to have been through any of Leavitt's Modern Method, or more particularly
to this discussion, the Reading books.
Melodic Rhythm is a different beast altogether.
I suggest you try to get a look at it......
It's a revelation in teaching true reading of music related to guitar.
I forgot to mention that Melodic Rhythms contains the down/up picking associated with alternate picking.
The pick direction [up/down] syncs in with what your foot tapping would be doing while playing at a slow - medium
tempo.
So...the pick goes down when the foot goes down and vice versa.
People can get this down pretty quickly in most cases I've seen during a long teaching stint [now over]
Okay I can hear people limbering up to say I don't solely alternate pick......No, very few actually do....but
you know how to do it don't you....cool.
So....say you've covered the first "Rhythm Group" as Leavitt calls 7 attacks per 4/4 measure.
He gets all the permutations available by the simple but precise means of moving the "missing" 8th note
one 8th to the right each bar.
Got that down...cool...now on to his self composed melodies....you have to read them because you haven't
heard them before.
Now let's say you've worked through the whole book....a pretty modest 70 pages.
Do you have to stick to the alternate picking?
Of course not......consider the alternate picked versions you learned as a way to quickly grok the correct rhythm
you learned and confirm you are playing what you are currently faced with....training wheels if you will.
So as your understanding grows of the various dialects of all of what we call jazz, you find you will no longer
follow the alternate picking.
Example.....a bebop tune...the 16th note triplet figures that arise often would most often played with either a
pull/hammer move or sweep if on adjacent strings.
Or another.... in practically all jazz styles including straight 8th feels....the "and of" two or four are very often
intuitively played with a down pick...because they are not appendages to the two or four but are actually the
one or three anticipated by one 8th.
And so on.
Summing up......Melodic Rhythms is a very different proposition to Leavitt's reading books....which have their
place for learning to play in many keys in a given position.
Like many I found them to be worth burning through....but very dry musically.
I worked through this book in 1975.....ha ha....yep that long ago.....I wrote the date in the front cover.
It was so effective that I took all my students through it with much success.
I may have stretched your patience with the length of the post.....but I feel strongly a debt of
gratitude to Bill Leavitt and want to spread the word.
Finally, just to be clear, I don't propose this resource instead of many other worthy ones.
Rather, as well as......And above all of them ....Listening Is King.Last edited by Moonray; 03-04-2015 at 07:42 PM. Reason: correcting a mistake
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That's good cos I didn't haha Originally Posted by Moonray
The melodic rhythms book I confess I've only dipped into, but I really wanted to underline that like others here I think the Leavitt stuff in general is very good. I'll definitely give the melodic rhythms book a bit more attention thanks to your recommendation
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BTW great post. 100% agree re technique/rhythm
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Sorry that was a bit harsh. Not everyone has the budget to move to say NY, but there was a serious point about seeking out great musicians and putting yourself in an environment with great players. I'm lucky to live in a capital city with many professional players. Originally Posted by christianm77
Don't diss drummers, man! They're my favourite guys! (Fun to go drinking with....)
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