Bebop - Swing it or playing it straight?

**McJazzer** · 08-26-2014, 05:25 PM

I'm going back over some heads to clean things up a little bit and came across a topic that I've always been a bit confused on. When playing at faster tempos, a lot of players end up not swinging on the same heads that they do swing on at slower tempos.
A good example is Donna Lee. Some swing it, some don't.
1) Do you guys like to swing Donna Lee at higher tempos or do you just play it straight?
2) What sort of picking technique do you use if you swing? I had originally learned the head playing it straight and using a combination of legato, sweeping, and hybrid picking. I'm finding it difficult to swing it now using those techniques. I've decided to use hammer ons and pull offs exclusively for the triplets now with a strict up-down picking style to keep the swing consistent. I've eliminated using my finger completely. Is this good technique for swinging?
Thanks so much,
Alex

**McJazzer** · 08-26-2014, 06:21 PM

Another topic:
Is it possible and practical to get proper bebop articulation out of strictly picking?

**pubylakeg** · 08-26-2014, 07:37 PM

I think this is a great topic for discussion, but can you clarify a couple of points.
"I've eliminated using my finger completely"
"articulation out of strictly picking"
Thanks.
Puby.

**marcwv** · 08-26-2014, 07:57 PM

Obviously the faster you go the more even your eight note become !!!!!!
Marc

**DRS** · 08-26-2014, 08:59 PM

I'm trying to think if you can have post-Armstrong jazz that doesn't swing.

**Tom Painter** · 08-26-2014, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by McJazzer

Another topic:
Is it possible and practical to get proper bebop articulation out of strictly picking?

If you want to sound like Bud Powell, you can't slur those keys!

**kenbennett** · 08-26-2014, 09:34 PM

Can't play Donna Lee extremely fast. I slur the triplets at any tempo.

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by kenbennett

Can't play Donna Lee extremely fast. I slur the triplets at any tempo.

IMO if you don't slur some (many) of the notes in the head to Donna Lee . . it ain't gonna sound anything like Donna Lee. Same with Billie's Bounce.

**McJazzer** · 08-26-2014, 11:46 PM

To clarify, I stopped using hybrid picking and switched to alternate picking. Just guitar pick. No right hand flesh.
I was wondering if by picking every note except the triplets, it is still possible to maintain a bebop feel.

**pubylakeg** · 08-27-2014, 10:49 AM

Thanks Mc,
Firstly, regarding swing. As pointed out above, the faster the tempo, the less room there is to incorporate the archetypal "dotted 8th" in the soloist's lines. However the term "swing" implies that there is a rhythmic "feel" which is desirable to create an authentic Jazz performance. In up-tempo Bebop, a lot of that is provided by the bass and drums, particularly the "swing" being provided by the bass player emphasizing the beats 2 & 4 in his walking lines.

Some Bop soloists have exploited long streams of 8th notes to create a feeling of "soaring" over the rhythm section very effectively. Some may choose to add variety by techniques such as asymmetric phrasing, and syncopated accents.

For the Guitarist, I feel it's important to maintain the listeners interest, and slurs, hammer-ons & pull-offs are good tools for generating timbral variety in a line.

Personally, I would say working with the pick exclusively, would be a logical choice. At up tempos it's the most efficient way of picking. My priority would be the cleanliness of execution. Alternate (and sweep) picking works for me, and has been used by many great players in the past. However, hybrid picking can also provide variety, and you may have a more personal result in mind.

**docbop** · 08-27-2014, 02:01 PM

It's something Sheryl Bailey talks about in feeling tempo in simple terms we feel tempo differently so on a slow tempo we might feel it in small subdivisions like for me tempo get slow I will feel in 12/8 to help keep it rolling. Fast tempo like a burning Parker tune I'll feel it a measure at a time. So thinking about the OP question on the fast Parker find I feel the swing is there, but I'm feeling measures swinging as they flow by, that the eighth notes are going by too fast to really capture the swing. So I hear the tune swing more than the notes. Hope that make sense.

**guitarbard** · 03-30-2016, 07:50 PM

A fiddling reference here,,not so much to swinging, but where the pulse falls. In Bluegrass, which is rather, to very, fast, the pulse is on the 2 and 4. In Oldtime(appalachian mountain music) the pulse is on the one,(like Soul music) even though it's considerably slower. Oldtime is dance music. Bluegrass is performance music. A bit fast to dance to. I'm an Oldtime player, on fiddle(and celtic music, too). Some very fast bebop seems to come down hard on the one, to my ear, anyway. May be on how you interpret it.

dortmundjazzguitar · 03-31-2016, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Painter

If you want to sound like Bud Powell, you can't slur those keys!

but if you want to sound like charlie parker you *must* slur those notes.

**rcpj** · 03-31-2016, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by McJazzer

Another topic:
Is it possible and practical to get proper bebop articulation out of strictly picking?

IMO a certain degree of sluring is needed to get the right feel- especially if one is aiming for horn-like phrases..

Can't imagine doing without slurs myself.

**christianm77** · 04-02-2016, 07:13 AM

Don't try to swing and aim for even articulation. Make sure the triplets are proper triplets. I think even at medium tempos you can be pretty straight. Swing tends to creep in naturally in my experience. It's quite subtle.

I notice when Barry harris runs exercises etc the feel is pretty straight.

Articulation: personally I use slurs quite rarely but I like to get the feeling of a slur if that makes any sense. I think it's good to be flexible.

**christianm77** · 04-02-2016, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by guitarbard

A fiddling reference here,,not so much to swinging, but where the pulse falls. In Bluegrass, which is rather, to very, fast, the pulse is on the 2 and 4. In Oldtime(appalachian mountain music) the pulse is on the one,(like Soul music) even though it's considerably slower. Oldtime is dance music. Bluegrass is performance music. A bit fast to dance to. I'm an Oldtime player, on fiddle(and celtic music, too). Some very fast bebop seems to come down hard on the one, to my ear, anyway. May be on how you interpret it.

So bluegrass is to oldtime what bebop is to swing, what tango Nuevo is to tango.

**Boston Joe** · 04-02-2016, 10:17 AM

This is something that's always intrigued me. There are some players - Pat Martino comes to mind - who don't actually swing the note values so much, but who have a definite swing feel. "Implied swing?"