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  1. #61
    I do. I prefer them because I intuitively tune into them (same mind/brain) and also because my acoustic sound doesn't always sound very good over one of those recorded backings.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    no, it isn't real musicians playing.
    If the parts are actually played by real musicians of very high caliber in many cases, how is it not so for you? It makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    It's samples of real musicians cobbled together in a crude simulation of real musicians playing.
    That's EXACTLY what multi-track recording is. What exactly do you mean with "crude simulation"? BIAB is a managing system of playing samples of pre-recorded music following the rules of tempo, music Theory of harmony with the added part of what's defined as a musical "style", using a chord progression and music style paradigm as UI to obtain the desired backing track to play over. Not fully-comprehending one or several of how their features inevitably leads to less-than-desirable outcomes... specially to some people that bought the program thinking to use it in a way it was NOT designed to function. Like the task of creating note-by-note copies of songs played in the radio, fx. So, the program doesn't deliver the expected outcome so it gets blamed, when it's simply the user's lack of understanding of the program itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    Sometimes it is the hammer. Especially if the hammer is a styrofoam simulation of a hammer.
    Even so, it all comes to "how you use it".
    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
    Milano, Italy
    https://soundcloud.com/theodore-koja...hy-bro-project
    Hy-Bro Test Sound Files

  3. #63
    well, no, that's not what multitrack recording is, "exactly" or otherwise. Maybe you meant overdubbing, but again, no.

    You love BIAB, fine, nobody objects to that. Anyone object to that? Hands? Nobody? OK!

    well gotta run...it's Tropical Hotdog Night!

  4. #64
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    I took this first video of my song, me playing a duo - two guitars. Then I did it with BIAB playing drums, bass, piano and me playing guitar (2nd video). Seems like a pretty good tool to me. Stryofoam simulation of a hammer? At least I don't think so.



    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  5. #65
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    Yeah, I think the thing I dislike about it conceptually is it can encourage people to respond to harmony as opposed to define it.

    So you think, here is C maj7, I shall play C maj7 stuff.

    Great improvisors did not tend to think of laying stuff over a piano - to my ears - they sound like they are absolutely creating a harmonic structure in their lines that relates in some interesting way to the original progression.

    The other thing always sounds a bit noodly and weak.

    The way Warne Marsh put it 'some pianists actually think I need them to comp for me.' A good improviser doesn't need comping. Comping adds an extra dimension (at least when done well.)

    Same thing goes for time/feel. Passive, slightly too relaxed, rather than really establishing a pocket on its own.

    I played a duo with a good guy today - no problem. Defined everything nice and clear - all I had to do was try and compliment him and comment in the gaps.

  6. #66
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    I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.
    Made sense to me, I mean you want to keep the gig!

  8. #68
    Flattery is a much-neglected aspect of jazz guitar technique.

  9. #69
    I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.

  10. This is the actual real drummer having a good time:

    Practice the scales or whatever with him for 10 minutes or so. It's a blast.
    Hard to go back playing with machines.

  11. #71
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    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63 View Post
    I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.
    Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?

    I honestly don’t know why people don’t just jam along with records. They tend to swing more in my experience. See also Mike Outram’s comment linked above.

    Another thing - how do you work on comping?

    As with most things it’s a grey area. In general I tend to want to follow the example of someone with a proven track record - like Mike, or Steve Brown who he mentions (probably best bop drummer in London.) Mostly the musicians I know went through the Aebersold phase a long while back and have moved on. Not totally useless, just not a primary practice tool, compared to a metronome or recordings by great musicians.*

    But, if you want to find a justification for using them, one can be found.

    I think they are really useful in school groups etc, where you can’t actually teach kids to play really and you just need them to feel like they are involved in music.

    * backing tracks might well be recorded by great players, but that’s a different deal. Probably to a click. And certainly not reacting to a great soloist.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?
    That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.

  13. #73
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    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63 View Post
    That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.
    I’m trying to be a little open here lol. I don’t know BIAB as a product at all, so I’m being unfair, but on the other hand you may take that as a data point in itself.

    In general I think a music student (we are all students) should understand there is an important difference between practice and performance.

    When I look back at the hours I used to pour away playing with backing tracks I didn’t really appreciate the distinction. I think if I had I would have made firmer progress, especially with respect to vocabulary & time feel if I’d done more transcription and metronome work, but time on the instrument is always good.

    OTOH if your performance is to play a tune with a BIAB backing, and upload (as many do here) I don’t have an issue with that. It’s what you do to prepare for that which is important.

    Practice is a private and challenging thing. I simply think jamming with tracks is not a rich enough activity once a player has the basics together. Usually time feel is a big area that needs work after the very basics are mastered, and I don’t rate tracks for that. Equally vocab is best learned from the musicians themselves.

    Performance is how we present ourselves to the outside world and is (meant!) to be a joy and pleasure. Backing tracks can surely help with that for those who can’t find live musicians to play with.

    (Personally I find it more fun to make my own backing tracks)

    Beyond that I can’t really comment on the product. Possibly that’s all in the included learning materials.

    But who wants to spend time with a program when you could puzzle out your first Lester Young licks by ear? Slow going at first, but you’ll be so much more satisfied by doing that. Presumably we all like listening to jazz.

  14. #74
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    Thought that probably makes me sound more intolerant and grumpy than I actually am lol

  15. #75
    Kojaks right ..sound like hes using the midi sounds .. get a grip man and Buy some REAL Tracks..and ditch the piano for a B4 ORGAN...either the BB one or KONTAKT...you know how to use a VST instrument with band in BOX...another world mate..youll start to sound like pat martinos early recordings..,SORT OF...cheers JIMMY BRUNO..endorses it....

  16. #76
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    I have literally no idea of what any of that meant. What is a VST? What is this KONTAKT of which you speak? Bah, humbug, get of my lawn young whippersnapper.

    If I'd wanted to be a computer programmer I'd have kept up with my FORTRAN.

    Stuff and nonsense!

  17. #77
    ha hah VST and KONTAKT names to instill fear here..im not even gonna try and explain..took me a while figure it out ..when it works its magic . whole new ball game of SOUNDS ...jimmy turned bass off drums and comping with just piano....sounds like the soundcard sounds..not real tracks ..dodnt think JIMMy messes with VST or Kontakt

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Thought that probably makes me sound more intolerant and grumpy than I actually am lol
    I’ll still defer to you for advice on how to play better.

  19. #79
    with VST and KONTAKT im having a crack at Classical Organ... can read pretty good..another uphill struggle..hooked up a Cheap Casio keyboard with midi and USB ....kontakt organ SAMPLES...have an authentic sounding Italian baroque organ...all sampled from the real instrument ....JS BACH smiles smiles back at him

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    ha hah VST and KONTAKT names to instill fear here..im not even gonna try and explain..took me a while figure it out ..when it works its magic . whole new ball game of SOUNDS ...jimmy turned bass off drums and comping with just piano....sounds like the soundcard sounds..not real tracks ..dodnt think JIMMy messes with VST or Kontakt
    Will they run on this?

    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?-proxy-duckduckgo-jpg

  21. #81
    Desperate to catch that phone pest...stirling job...5 bob an hour

  22. #82
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    He's a wily little bastard

  23. #83
    After many decades of playing, I think I advanced faster by using IRealPro than from the sorts of things I'd been doing before.

    My approach was to pick a tune and set it for a key change every chorus by a fourth or fifth. 13 repeats.

    I'd then play the melody, solo, and comp.

    Good for:

    learning tunes

    ear training

    getting comfortable in 12 keys

    getting chord changes to be automatic by sound in 12 keys.

    finding weaknesses in my knowledge e.g. key/position/chord/scale things I didn't know. I found, for example, that there were chords I could play over, except in a certain region of the fingerboard, because, somehow, I'd glossed over it for 50 years.

    Questionably good for:

    time feel.

    In fact, it is good for making sure, for example, that your lines are in good mechanical time. You still have to work on getting everything to swing hard, but at least you can work on not dragging or rushing.

    Last point. This was helpful to me. Apparently, Wes didn't need it.

  24. #84
    did they ever catch that phone pest...Fled before Scotland Yard could get to the call box..was in fact edgar lustgarten..

  25. #85
    who says you shouldn't use it? It's a good practice tool. It doesn't sound or feel like playing with great players but it sounds and feels like playing with slightly better than average players. To answer the question of why it doesn't feel like real musicians compared to jamey abersold - the answer is that you are not playing along with a recording of musicians. You are playing along with micro-fragments of beats, measures and choruses strung-together algorithmically by software. You are at the mercy of the particular recordings, the accuracy of the players and their subdivisions, note choices of bassists, comping choices of pianists, etc.

    I find the guitar impossible to use so I turn it off. I try to use it with piano or organ, bass and drums, turning off the piano whenever possible.

    It's horrible at modern chord types. It doesn't understand polychords or slash chords or modern (circa late '70s) chords like Maj7#5, Maj7#9#11, etc.

    But what it does, it's good at and - like a metronome - is invaluable as a learning and practicing aid.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    who says you shouldn't use it? It's a good practice tool. It doesn't sound or feel like playing with great players but it sounds and feels like playing with slightly better than average players. To answer the question of why it doesn't feel like real musicians compared to jamey abersold - the answer is that you are not playing along with a recording of musicians. You are playing along with micro-fragments of beats, measures and choruses strung-together algorithmically by software. You are at the mercy of the particular recordings, the accuracy of the players and their subdivisions, note choices of bassists, comping choices of pianists, etc.

    I find the guitar impossible to use so I turn it off. I try to use it with piano or organ, bass and drums, turning off the piano whenever possible.

    It's horrible at modern chord types. It doesn't understand polychords or slash chords or modern (circa late '70s) chords like Maj7#5, Maj7#9#11, etc.

    But what it does, it's good at and - like a metronome - is invaluable as a learning and practicing aid.
    I mostly agree with everything Jack wrote here, but both Band in a Box and a metronome, while good tools, should not be relied on as the jazz gospel. In real life jazz, time can be fluid. When the music nears a climax, it can speed up, when it is time for a landing it can slow down. A good jazz player can adjust to the needs of the ensemble. A metronome and Band in a Box can cause a user to become too rigid. Use these tools to get your time consistent, but also develop flexibility by playing with actual humans of as much skill as you can.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    I mostly agree with everything Jack wrote here, but both Band in a Box and a metronome, while good tools, should not be relied on as the jazz gospel. In real life jazz, time can be fluid. When the music nears a climax, it can speed up, when it is time for a landing it can slow down. A good jazz player can adjust to the needs of the ensemble. A metronome and Band in a Box can cause a user to become too rigid. Use these tools to get your time consistent, but also develop flexibility by playing with actual humans of as much skill as you can.
    i don't think a software tool or metronome or biab can cause a player to become more rigid. I think that's the responsibility of the player. It's obvious that to be a jazz player you need to play with other people.

    I've personally played with tons of players who never play with a metronome and who claim that biab makes them more mechanical and who have no time whatsoever so i don't think you can make a panacea argument here.

  28. #88
    It's really never the tools fault, is it?

    People still blame the Real Book for bad players...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  29. #89
    No one that I know has ever told me not to use it but there are complaints about it. For myself I do not have ready access to a rhythmn section and I use it to simply try and play through tunes. Some complain that it gets mechanical and real humans tend to move up and down with the tempo at times. Well for myself it is far better to be a perfect with my time that to rely entirely on my own sense of time. If I get in a situation that the real players are moving the time hopefully I can respond.

    For practicing I find it very good and it certainly help at least my own playing. I am mere mortal playing the guitar so it works for me. I would guess if you are a killer player and play many gigs it probably is less than helpful for those blessed. When you really think of it the best practice for the guitar is to play real gigs and then go home and work on what you screwed up on or hone the tunes and skills based on the playing situation. I think Herb Ellis describe this when he first went with Oscar Peterson.

    The great Johnny Smith said practicing was practicing and playing in playing...………..I think I get what he said. In the mean time BIAB is fine for me to use.
    specializing in repair and setup, does your guitar play like it should?

  30. #90
    A Tool that's just an update for a metronome.

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