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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I thought Drum Genius was real loops. From what little I've heard he did a hell of a job if it's midi.

    I just bought the app. Didn't know you get everything for $8!!!! Bargain of the century. I'm a little behind with this stuff but not too much. If that's midi programming it's extraordinary.
    It's a no-brainer.
    Aren't the Real drums in BIAB real drummers? I think it's loops of real playing. Who knows.
    DG is a jazz app definitely. Swing and bop grooves are notoriously difficult to do with midi. Midi or not he nailed it.
    The Drumgenius website says "All the drum loops have been realized by Mauro Battisti using a master keyboard and XLN Addictive Drum library".

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Transcriptions? I suppose the piano roll in Ableton could be called a tool for composition.
    I'm not knocking Barry. I liked the video.

    Come to think of it the piano roll would make transcribing easier. Not only looking at the little keyboard to see the notes but also note duration.
    That is nifty.
    I don't think Barry Greene really explains the 'transcription' business in the video, but I assumed he somehow takes that midi output from his recorded guitar track in Ableton and opens it in a notation program like Finale? I think that might convert it into useable notation.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The Drumgenius website says "All the drum loops have been realized by Mauro Battisti using a master keyboard and XLN Addictive Drum library".
    But is it midi or audio? When you play the app it has to be playing audio. Seems he used samples from Addictive. Addictive is midi. Somehow he programmed the beats and made audio loops. Maybe he used the keyboard as a kind of drum pad and tapped out everything.
    Whatever he did he did it right.
    That would make the most sense- use Addictive as a sample library. Use a midi keyboard that has a sequencer and tap out everything in real time.

  5. #29

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    Yes, he sat with his keyboard with Addictive drums loaded and went about copying every kick and every other drum in the groove. He really got the grooves right.
    The sounds are all Addictive drums.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I don't think Barry Greene really explains the 'transcription' business in the video, but I assumed he somehow takes that midi output from his recorded guitar track in Ableton and opens it in a notation program like Finale? I think that might convert it into useable notation.
    There is another video where Barry shows every step of the transcription process. He uses a stand alone app for notation. Imports the midi file that was made in Ableton.
    It's late, otherwise, I would find the video for you.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    how does addictive drums compare to ezdrummerI have both apps (which I own) and can you import the grooves into ezdrummer and visa versa?
    I have both apps and there are situations where I need to use midi tracks created in Addictive in EZ drummer 2 and sometimes vice versa.

    This is usually a PITA because they both use different maps. Also, the velocities don't translate well.

    Addictive is better at this process because.....from memory.....you can select a different map from within the app. There is a drop down menu and EZ drummer is listed. You don't import the midi file, you just put it on the Addictive track and select what conversion you want.

    EZ Drummer 2 does not have this. They make you use a separate, but free app. I forget what it is called. It's on their site.

    You have to put that free plugin before your other drum plugin and it decodes from Addictive to EZ Drummer. Very clunky and very old concept but it works. Once again you have to fiddle with velocity info to make it sound right. Sometimes it just doesn't sound so good.

    So you don't really import the midi files into either app.
    I wish it were that easy.
    It's been a while since I've tried that but I don't think anything has changed.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I don't think Barry Greene really explains the 'transcription' business in the video, but I assumed he somehow takes that midi output from his recorded guitar track in Ableton and opens it in a notation program like Finale? I think that might convert it into useable notation.
    Barry further describes transcription process in the subsequent video. He pitch corrects, quantizes, then imports the midi into Sibelius. (Check about 5:15 in this video.)


    Sorry if this is derailing Jack's original topic ...

  9. #33

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    DG is amazing and tech is tech. It's all on topic.
    I've been on the fence since forever about applying this to performing. This audio to midi conversion in Abelton is huge too. More and more people are moving away from DAWs like FL Studio and on to Ableton.
    I'm not crazy about sampling in software. IDK why. I wish companies like Roland would take midi sync seriously. I could hook up the Boss RC 300 to FL Studio and be done with it.

  10. #34

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    I'm pretty impressed that the author did all the loops with a midi keyboard! the dynamics are very very good.

    I particularly get a lot of use out of the odd time library, and there's a LOT of really intricate grooves, impressive on the transcription front alone!

  11. #35

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    I've been watching some of Barry Greene's videos and I like the sound he gets with just a drum loop and guitar comping. Somehow without a walking bass line it sounds a bit more 'ECM/contemporary', or at least to me it does. If I was doing some recording like this, I would get all obsessive about having a bass line and go to all sorts of trouble to get one from BIAB or something, but actually I am starting to like Barry's 'bassless' approach.

    As I have Drumgenius and I have a copy of Ableton Lite on my PC (it came free with some gadget I bought) I might have a go at this myself. I haven't used Ableton much though, I'll need to get my head round it.

  12. #36

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    On the subject of Ableton, I give you this gem from page 41 of the Ableton manual:

    Live’s Auto-Warp algorithm actually makes it easy to line up any sample with the song tempo, such as a recording of a drunken jazz band’s performance.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    On the subject of Ableton, I give you this gem from page 41 of the Ableton manual:

    Live’s Auto-Warp algorithm actually makes it easy to line up any sample with the song tempo, such as a recording of a drunken jazz band’s performance.
    Ha...!
    If you want to learn Ableton fast, then there are plenty of great YT videos.

    You will find a plethora of young men who know the product inside out.
    It's like the ultimate man/baby toy for manipulating sounds.

  14. #38
    so, I can now say i've experienced all the bugs folks were discussing earlier in this thread. It's actually a very buggy program but the drum patterns are great. None of the drum libraries I have on my computer have the breath of diversity that this program does. I just wish there were more modern drum beats, ecm/floating 8th stuff and more elvin and tain watts!

  15. #39

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    The programs bugs came into being as a result of the IOS updates.
    You know the routine, a perfectly working app/program take on problems in the newest op systems.
    Drum Genius compatibility is not something Apple considers when they update.

    What's there is great. Looking forward to the next next 300.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster
    I think Jens Larsen was the first I recall recommending DG to us. Barry Greene has a great video on YouTube illustrating how he uses it with Ableton Live for his YT channel.
    Jens Larsen also wrote against this recently. Not specially against DG, but backing tracks...
    The title is:

    "Practice with Backing Tracks will ruin your Rhythm and Timing!"

    (
    )


    This is obviously not true, if it would be then playing with an ensemble also could ruin our timing.

    Later in the video it turns out, he a bit clearify this extreme statement, in the means that relying to our inner rhythm (controlled by an external reference) develops more timing than constantly relying an outer timing which could be true.


  17. #41

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    Thanks for sharing my video!

    I think the discussion of what backing tracks are good for and when they are in fact a bad habit is really something that would help jazz education as a whole.

    The amount of people who are oblivious to how bad their timing is and only practice with music minus one is really huge just go to the section of the forum where people post their playing, or click on one of the many comments on the video to see people slaughter St Thomas by rushing so much that they turn around the beat after about two bars.

    I know the title is provocative, but it also is helping raise awareness and the feedback that I get from people teaching at higher levels has only been positive and supportive.

    Part of being good at jazz is having the rhythm and the harmony going internally and backing tracks makes you too lazy with that. It's too easy.

    It's not that you should never do it, but like consuming alcohol and fat food, be aware of the consequences.

    Jens

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Jens Larsen also wrote against this recently. Not specially against DG, but backing tracks...
    The title is:

    "Practice with Backing Tracks will ruin your Rhythm and Timing!"

    (
    )


    This is obviously not true, if it would be then playing with an ensemble also could ruin our timing.

    Later in the video it turns out, he a bit clearify this extreme statement, in the means that relying to our inner rhythm (controlled by an external reference) develops more timing than constantly relying an outer timing which could be true.

  18. #42

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    @JensL

    Just tried your dotted quarter note exercise with a blues walking bass (on a double bass). Puh, that´s really hard, but I think it is a really good exercise...

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JensL

    Part of being good at jazz is having the rhythm and the harmony going internally and backing tracks makes you too lazy with that. It's too easy.

    Another reason is that it doesn't teach you about interaction. Is there any jazz more boring than listening to soloists who use the rhythm section as a play along?

  20. #44
    Don't know that there's much way around it, but one of the problems with backing tracks is that if the track provides enough auditory "information" to be able to play along well, it's probably a lot MORE than a live band would be playing. Band in a box gives you a degree of work-around with this, by being able to mute things.

    Drum genius has a very clever workaround as well, with its clave toggle button. It allows you to learn to play with real drum parts from pros, which you might have trouble hearing at first, but once you learn them you can work on really interacting with all of that "space" and subtly implied groove.

  21. #45

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    I pretty much put playing along with backing tracks in the category of "things that are fun for me every so often but not serious practice", in that I don't expect my playing to improve much by playing along with backing tracks. but, is it fun to put on one of the joey defrancesco aebersolds after work on a friday, have a beer and jam out? of course it is.

    I think the backing track thing gets dangerous when you view it as a substitute or alternative to playing with actual other musicians. jazz is collective music.

    I do think it's also great to use to feel like what it's like playing with top level cats. This is where I think some aebersolds are really great, and BIAB is terrible. The Cedar Walton aebersold is Cedar on piano, Ron Carter, and Billy Higgins. It doesn't get any better than that! There are a couple really great ones, the Cannonball Adderly one is his actual band, with Sam Jones, Louis Hayes, etc.

    It's funny, I was recently talking with a famous jazz pianist about a gig he did with two old masters, and he told me that to prepare for the gig he practiced with an aebersold they were both on, because he couldn't think of any better way to prepare! This is someone everyone would know and respect.

  22. #46

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    It comes down to "you are what you practice," really. If you don't practice with a backing, do you record yourself to check on time? If you do practice with tracks, do you also practice without to make sure you can convey the changes in your melodic line without backing?

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by boo
    @JensL

    Just tried your dotted quarter note exercise with a blues walking bass (on a double bass). Puh, that´s really hard, but I think it is a really good exercise...
    Thanks! It might feel a bit strange with walking since the metronome is then in an even feel. I'd suggest starting with some simple chords, then soloing and a bop theme that isn't too tricky

    Jens

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It comes down to "you are what you practice," really. If you don't practice with a backing, do you record yourself to check on time? If you do practice with tracks, do you also practice without to make sure you can convey the changes in your melodic line without backing?
    This is very very (very) true!

    Jens

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by JensL
    Thanks for sharing my video!

    I think the discussion of what backing tracks are good for and when they are in fact a bad habit is really something that would help jazz education as a whole.

    The amount of people who are oblivious to how bad their timing is and only practice with music minus one is really huge just go to the section of the forum where people post their playing, or click on one of the many comments on the video to see people slaughter St Thomas by rushing so much that they turn around the beat after about two bars.

    I know the title is provocative, but it also is helping raise awareness and the feedback that I get from people teaching at higher levels has only been positive and supportive.

    Part of being good at jazz is having the rhythm and the harmony going internally and backing tracks makes you too lazy with that. It's too easy.

    It's not that you should never do it, but like consuming alcohol and fat food, be aware of the consequences.

    Jens

    I think in your answer now we are talking three different things, and those are mixed up which is not good:

    1) How to practice and develop your "time-sense" (important)
    2) Are backing tracks good or not (important, and do not mix with 1))
    3) Do people know how is their time-sense, in general Do people has a realistic picture of their capabilities and performance in real life (not so important, just accept the fact: they (we) don't)

    1) How to practice and develop your "time-sense"

    Strongly agree with you. This requires special practice. The internal time sense during the practice must be externally validated. How it is possible without ruining the whole point and listening to an external rhythm source? The only way is: Having an external rhythm source which is not too dense (only bars not beats, this can be easily achieved with any metronome) or a rhythm source which have pauses (say 4 beat then 4 beat silence) If after the silence you are still in sync, you are good. Actually any stop-time backing track is excellent practice material for this.


    2) Are backing tracks good or not

    Here I strongly disagree with you, and I really think that statement "backing tracks are bad habit, or not useful" is false.

    Backing tracks simply have nothing to do with the fact that people do not practice time sense (enough), similarly as nothing have to do that if say people do not practice ear training (enough). Backing tracks are not for ear training and neither for time sense. The statement that backing tracks ruining time sense is just as false as stating backing tracks are ruining you ears.

    I think backing tracks has great value in learning and development. Of course if one uses backing tracks instead of drinking or eating she/he will die sooner or later :-)


    3) Do people know how their time-sense


    You are right. People (including myself) sometimes has no realistic idea about their skills, performance in general in life. However we can connect this fact with the backing track good or not question. Time feel is a specially sensitive area: Because the musician exists within her/his fluctuating bad time, his playing is always perfect relative to that (bad) time, will not be noticed by the player. Btw I could name very famous guitarist (I will not) who have t e r r i b l e time, and still many jazz guitar fan idolizing them.

    I think this point (3) is mainly out of topic, but there is an interesting aspect what we can conclude: we must always listen ourself, even when playing a scale practice. Listen to the time, and widening the scope: listen to the intonation, in general: the sound. This can be doing by recording, then re-listen: well, that could be a very painful experience...I suppose that's why many of us usually rejects this practice after the shocking first experiences :-) however that is just the start. Ideally we should develop a real-time self listening habit, listen real-time ourself, just as we listen a recording.

    An interesting and not expected side effect of this habit could help improvising too, by helping to achieve a more relaxed listener mindset, instead of the more stressed "must produce music" mindset. Sounds schizophren I know, but could work.

  26. #50
    Plenty of great players with fabulous time including Adam Rogers do lots of practicing to recorded tracks. In the modern world, there just isn't the ability to jam every night with the best players in the world like there was in the '50s and '60s so you have to use every opportunity you can to work on your time and improvisation in general.

    And in terms of playing and interacting with the rhythm section, i get that and while I agree, there are plenty of examples of fabulous solos that were recorded separately from the rhythm section. There was a video floating around on youtube (couldn't find the link) of Mike Brecker recording his solo over a tune where he was essentially playing over the rhythm section as a backing track and it was an amazing solo and nobody would ever know he didn't record it live and in the room with the band.

    I mean, obviously nothing beats playing with a great rhythm section but let's be honest. Playing with a terrible rhythm section is not necessarily ideal either...

    Don't let the level of absolutes outweighs common sense...